metopower
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2006
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Notice that this fare is in DTW to Florida. Leisure market and it probably aimed at Spirit and maybe WN . With the load factors that have been on my fights good luck get one of those seats.
DL tests "basic economy" fares DTW-FLA
- Thread starter WorldTraveler
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Airlinelifer
Senior
- Jan 10, 2008
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Very heavy loads between FLL & DTW, with RON flights/AM turns getting heavy loads of cargo also. NO ONE likes to get assigned the DTW pier in the bagroom..... Ahh NRT, MNL, PVG, PEK, SEL, HKG, BKK, just a "few" HEAVY tags to pump you up! The cruise bags Friday thru Monday also add to the fun.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
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With NK serving all 4 of these routes non-stop, it certainly gives the appearance that DL may be attempting to stem a loss of passengers to a low fare carrier. Unfortunately, selling a seat without a seat assignment does nothing to lower the cost of providing the transportation so these fares either cut into margins or become "loss leader" fares.
Jim
Jim
BoeingBoy
Veteran
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I believe that NK is the only carrier besides DL that serves the 4 routes non-stop, so it sure looks like it's aimed at them. Unfortunately for DL, NK's CASM is not that much higher than DL's "ex fuel, special items, profit sharing, etc" CASM so competing on price is a losing game for DL. I haven't looked at these "lower than economy" fares but assume that DL is hoping that by reducing but not eliminating the difference between their lowest fares and NK's fares, they'll capture (or recapture) some of the traffic going to NK. But it certainly does give the appearance that NK is hurting DL's loads enough that DL felt it had to try something.
Jim
Jim
Kev, like eolesen said,..........wait till AHMED from Dearborn, who paid $500 bucks, gets a carry on dropped on his Head from the overhead, because Tanisha was trying to RAM her steamer TRUNK into the O H Bin.
h34r: ( NFW shes paying a ck bag fee) !!!
metopower
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2006
- 932
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This fare is like an S4 pass....You pay the fare..No seat ...DL keeps the fare.Now you standby for the next flight.I think the only ones hurt is the NRSA. This is similar to how DL competed against that startup in MSY years ago. Matched the $49 fare with two seats per fllight. Then told people they were sold out and directed them to the other airline.When they were sold out they were forced back to DL at the standard fare. Both airlines were happy .Both full but much different yields. I think this is much to do about nothing.
Kev3188
Veteran
What have Balikbayan boxes ever done to you?
Good question. All the more so since many internal communications have stated that this is the demographic the company is NOT interested in pursuing. I get the idea of squeezing every last bit of revenue they can out of any given flight, but this seems like it'll be way more trouble than it's worth, and that's not even counting the inevitable backlash from passengers that won't grasp the concept, no matter how much "education" they receive.
Yup.
Kev, like eolesen said,..........wait till AHMED from Dearborn, who paid $500 bucks, gets a carry on dropped on his Head from the overhead, because Tanisha was trying to RAM her steamer TRUNK into the O H Bin.
Already happening, amigo. This just has the possibility of making an already bad scene worse...
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
- Thread Starter
- #24
Ok. Tech, I'll accommodate you and provide a less than 100 word response to your question.
---
The simple reason DL is being aggressive with NK (to whom these fares are targeted) is because there is an abundance of history that shows that network/legacy airlines that INTENTIONALLY CHOOSE not to compete with certain airlines or certain segments of the passenger base in the network carriers' KEY MARKETS have ended up with having those markets infested with low fare carriers.
- 62 words
WARNING: the remaining response exceeds 100 words. If you cannot or do not wish to exceed 100 words, please navigate to another page.
Kev is absolutely correct that there is no reason for DL to chase low fare carriers in non-core markets. AA and DL both of late have made the decision for instance that they will not chase low fare carrier traffic in BOS - and both have pulled down their offerings there.
.
But DTW IS a core market for DL and they cannot allow a low fare carrier to add a flight or two in one or two core markets without attemping to be price competitive - or they will wake up one day with that carrier firmly established and offering 3-4 flights/day which is more than enough to establish in the consumer's mind that the LFC is a viable competitor.
.
You need only look at what has happened to AA in the past year at ORD and DFW by B6 and VX. B6 now has more than 15% market share in BOS-ORD, a market that was long dominated by AA and UA - and most of the share has come from AA. In DFW-SFO and LAX, VX has 20% or more market share and the average fare has fallen.
AA chose NOT to be fully competitive with VX during its early months in DFW, in part because AA's flights were already full - and now there is more LFC capacity being added to DFW than in any other network carrier hub.
Or you can look at UA's DEN hub... UA chose to not be competitive with WN and FL which aggressively expanded at DEN during UA's BK - they added roundtrip/Sat night stay requirements and a $20 or more premium to WN's fares and, lo and behold, UA now has less than 30% domestic market share at DEN, is pulling down flights, and WN continues to grow.
.
Any network carrier that chooses not to be competitive with other carriers in the network carrier's core markets can prepare to see those markets be taken over by the low fare carrier, with the result that the network carrier loses the ability to price its own produce and loses the brand preference they once had in that market.
The evidence that NK is hurting DL loads comes where? At the same time several posters have said that DTW-Florida flights are FULL plus?
.
While comparing DL Express/Song, Metrojet, etc.... it is worth noting that DL STILL serves the majority of the markets served by those carriers AND maintains its relative position in those markets, including being the only network carrier that serves all of the key Florida markets from BOTH LGA and JFK.
Most of the metrojet markets were abandoned. UA still serves many of the same markets but as noted UA continues to decrease its presence in DEN.
DL Express/Song were mechanisms that DL used to protect its markets - and they succeeded at doing that, regardless of whether Song/DL Express still exists.
.
The same might well be said about Economy Basic in a few years.
.
Despite pulling down CVG and MEM over several years, DL's market share in those cities remains unchanged and even though CVG has been begging low fare carriers to enter CVG, none have chosen to do so.
WN is at the same market share in SLC as it was 10 years ago - and WN/FL will be smaller in ATL by the end of this year than they were when the WN/FL merger was announced.
DL - and NW while it existed - both had VERY AGGRESSIVE strategies to protect its core markets.
.
In all the fury to find reasons why Economy Basic will fail, some people here seem to forget (or don't know) that DL, like many airlines, does not assign 100% of their seats in advance NOW. There are 10-12 people on every flight TODAY who will check in with no seat assignment.
DL, like most other airlines, already provides a mechanism for gate agents to quickly know what passengers on the flight are unseated and assign seats, including knowing whether those passengers have already checked in for an upline flight. They also clearly see families traveling with children and can assign seats......
NOTHING CHANGES from the way seat selection happens now vs. with Economy Basic, except that the EB passenger NEVER gets a chance to request what seats they want - DL makes the decision.
If anything, there will be a higher percentage of "normal" economy passengers who will be able to select their own seats in advance.
.
DL is not increasing overbooking levels to sell these seats and DOT stats show that DL already has one of the lowest denied boarding ratios in the industry, esp. among network carriers - and that is due in large part to what NW invested in their revenue mgmt system - which DL chose to use over DL's own system.
.
Again, if anyone actually went to delta.com to buy these seats, you would see that there are advisories that there are only a couple seats available at the EB fare - if they can be found at all. There are very limited numbers of these seats.
.
Carry on baggage? Please! What makes someone who buys an EB fare any more likely to bring on carry-on baggage than other passengers? DO you not think that gate agents at ALL airlines have been well-trained in looking for and requiring oversize baggage to be checked?
.
The Economy Basic fare is an obvious attempt for DL to be competitive with ultra-low fare carriers who unbundle their products. Since WN does not do that, it is unlikley they are one of the targets.
It is possible that DL will detach other product elements - including Skymiles accumulation, baggage allowances, etc - the EB fare concept at some point... but there is no reason to think that DL agents will understand EXACTLY the differences in service levels to be provided - just as they do between normal and elite passengers - who have different baggage allowances TODAY.
.
I'm sure my explanation is more than some people want to read - but they were free to have clicked away from the post ealier...and since forums loads an entire post on one page (I've never seen a post divided over two pages) there was no doubt how long the post was when they started reading.
.
The bottom line is that DL clearly has plans to differentiate its product in an attempt to remain price competitive with ultra low fare carriers in markets that matter to DL.
...
It is no surprise that DL as the network airline that is most aggressive in competing with low fare carriers is also leading the network carriers - if not the industry in revenue growth right now.
The two strategies are not disconnected.
---
The simple reason DL is being aggressive with NK (to whom these fares are targeted) is because there is an abundance of history that shows that network/legacy airlines that INTENTIONALLY CHOOSE not to compete with certain airlines or certain segments of the passenger base in the network carriers' KEY MARKETS have ended up with having those markets infested with low fare carriers.
- 62 words
WARNING: the remaining response exceeds 100 words. If you cannot or do not wish to exceed 100 words, please navigate to another page.
Kev is absolutely correct that there is no reason for DL to chase low fare carriers in non-core markets. AA and DL both of late have made the decision for instance that they will not chase low fare carrier traffic in BOS - and both have pulled down their offerings there.
.
But DTW IS a core market for DL and they cannot allow a low fare carrier to add a flight or two in one or two core markets without attemping to be price competitive - or they will wake up one day with that carrier firmly established and offering 3-4 flights/day which is more than enough to establish in the consumer's mind that the LFC is a viable competitor.
.
You need only look at what has happened to AA in the past year at ORD and DFW by B6 and VX. B6 now has more than 15% market share in BOS-ORD, a market that was long dominated by AA and UA - and most of the share has come from AA. In DFW-SFO and LAX, VX has 20% or more market share and the average fare has fallen.
AA chose NOT to be fully competitive with VX during its early months in DFW, in part because AA's flights were already full - and now there is more LFC capacity being added to DFW than in any other network carrier hub.
Or you can look at UA's DEN hub... UA chose to not be competitive with WN and FL which aggressively expanded at DEN during UA's BK - they added roundtrip/Sat night stay requirements and a $20 or more premium to WN's fares and, lo and behold, UA now has less than 30% domestic market share at DEN, is pulling down flights, and WN continues to grow.
.
Any network carrier that chooses not to be competitive with other carriers in the network carrier's core markets can prepare to see those markets be taken over by the low fare carrier, with the result that the network carrier loses the ability to price its own produce and loses the brand preference they once had in that market.
The evidence that NK is hurting DL loads comes where? At the same time several posters have said that DTW-Florida flights are FULL plus?
.
While comparing DL Express/Song, Metrojet, etc.... it is worth noting that DL STILL serves the majority of the markets served by those carriers AND maintains its relative position in those markets, including being the only network carrier that serves all of the key Florida markets from BOTH LGA and JFK.
Most of the metrojet markets were abandoned. UA still serves many of the same markets but as noted UA continues to decrease its presence in DEN.
DL Express/Song were mechanisms that DL used to protect its markets - and they succeeded at doing that, regardless of whether Song/DL Express still exists.
.
The same might well be said about Economy Basic in a few years.
.
Despite pulling down CVG and MEM over several years, DL's market share in those cities remains unchanged and even though CVG has been begging low fare carriers to enter CVG, none have chosen to do so.
WN is at the same market share in SLC as it was 10 years ago - and WN/FL will be smaller in ATL by the end of this year than they were when the WN/FL merger was announced.
DL - and NW while it existed - both had VERY AGGRESSIVE strategies to protect its core markets.
.
In all the fury to find reasons why Economy Basic will fail, some people here seem to forget (or don't know) that DL, like many airlines, does not assign 100% of their seats in advance NOW. There are 10-12 people on every flight TODAY who will check in with no seat assignment.
DL, like most other airlines, already provides a mechanism for gate agents to quickly know what passengers on the flight are unseated and assign seats, including knowing whether those passengers have already checked in for an upline flight. They also clearly see families traveling with children and can assign seats......
NOTHING CHANGES from the way seat selection happens now vs. with Economy Basic, except that the EB passenger NEVER gets a chance to request what seats they want - DL makes the decision.
If anything, there will be a higher percentage of "normal" economy passengers who will be able to select their own seats in advance.
.
DL is not increasing overbooking levels to sell these seats and DOT stats show that DL already has one of the lowest denied boarding ratios in the industry, esp. among network carriers - and that is due in large part to what NW invested in their revenue mgmt system - which DL chose to use over DL's own system.
.
Again, if anyone actually went to delta.com to buy these seats, you would see that there are advisories that there are only a couple seats available at the EB fare - if they can be found at all. There are very limited numbers of these seats.
.
Carry on baggage? Please! What makes someone who buys an EB fare any more likely to bring on carry-on baggage than other passengers? DO you not think that gate agents at ALL airlines have been well-trained in looking for and requiring oversize baggage to be checked?
.
The Economy Basic fare is an obvious attempt for DL to be competitive with ultra-low fare carriers who unbundle their products. Since WN does not do that, it is unlikley they are one of the targets.
It is possible that DL will detach other product elements - including Skymiles accumulation, baggage allowances, etc - the EB fare concept at some point... but there is no reason to think that DL agents will understand EXACTLY the differences in service levels to be provided - just as they do between normal and elite passengers - who have different baggage allowances TODAY.
.
I'm sure my explanation is more than some people want to read - but they were free to have clicked away from the post ealier...and since forums loads an entire post on one page (I've never seen a post divided over two pages) there was no doubt how long the post was when they started reading.
.
The bottom line is that DL clearly has plans to differentiate its product in an attempt to remain price competitive with ultra low fare carriers in markets that matter to DL.
...
It is no surprise that DL as the network airline that is most aggressive in competing with low fare carriers is also leading the network carriers - if not the industry in revenue growth right now.
The two strategies are not disconnected.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
DL can't do that - the DOT rules for denied boarding still apply, both VDB and IDB. Where I agree, at least on the specific routes where this is offered, it that more seats may be filled by revenue passengers making it harder to non-rev.
Jim
tech2101
Veteran
Thank you.
I still tend to agree with Kevin and others that this will drive customer satisfaction down in this segment.
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
- Thread Starter
- #27
Given that there MIGHT be a handful of seats at best on some flights, I'm not sure there is going to be anywhere near the number of potential passengers as some might believe... it is a marketing effort so far... and DL is under no obligation to provide a specific number of seats unless they advertise the fares, which so far as I know they have not.
.
It is also still in test... which means some parts of the program might be revised.
.
And the primary issue discussed here - the lack of a seat assignment until check-in - has existed in DL's operations for years for a certain number of passengers.
.
The difference now is that these passengers will have soemthing to the effect of "NO SEAT CHANGES PERMITTED" printed on their boarding passes.
Kev3188
Veteran
...And that will be willfully ignored by many who think the rules don't apply to them, just as the carry-on rules are now...
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
- Thread Starter
- #29
But gate agents DO stop passengers today and make them to check oversized items.... and they DO tell customers there are no seats left to change.
I'm still not sure how DL deciding to publish a fare that results in a statement being printed on the boarding pass saying "NO SEAT CHANGES" makes it more likely they will create problems than the people today who can't get what they want and don't have that statement printed on their BPs.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
The big difference between comparing a carry-on and this are that you can defend the lack of carry-on space. It's a physical limitation, and it, too, is selectively enforced.
Putting something on a boarding pass? If I'm stuck babysitting Bubbette because BubbaMom is 20 rows in back of him, I won't care what's printed on the boarding pass. I'll just be pissed off.
Unlike a carry-on, Bubbette or BubbaJr is going to want to buy a snack, talk, get up to pee, etc. and I'm the one who will have to deal with all that, not BubbaMom.
It's simply a bad strategy to expect your gate agents & flight attendants to have to police things like this.
Putting something on a boarding pass? If I'm stuck babysitting Bubbette because BubbaMom is 20 rows in back of him, I won't care what's printed on the boarding pass. I'll just be pissed off.
Unlike a carry-on, Bubbette or BubbaJr is going to want to buy a snack, talk, get up to pee, etc. and I'm the one who will have to deal with all that, not BubbaMom.
It's simply a bad strategy to expect your gate agents & flight attendants to have to police things like this.
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