DL tests "basic economy" fares DTW-FLA

[WorldTraveler]

The big difference between comparing a carry-on and this are that you can defend the lack of carry-on space. It's a physical limitation, and it, too, is selectively enforced.

Putting something on a boarding pass? If I'm stuck babysitting Bubbette because BubbaMom is 20 rows in back of him, I won't care what's printed on the boarding pass. I'll just be pissed off.

Unlike a carry-on, Bubbette or BubbaJr is going to want to buy a snack, talk, get up to pee, etc. and I'm the one who will have to deal with all that, not BubbaMom.

It's simply a bad strategy to expect your gate agents & flight attendants to have to police things like this.

I'm sorry but how do you think this couldn't happen today - with the legitimate expectation that a family should be able to sit together?
.
Here, they are knowingly buying a fare that does not give them to right to choose their seats and I haven't seen any evidence that people are going to expect anything more than they already get. By the logic you are using, people who are paying less are going to demand more - and DL employees are going to be less able to say no than they are today. If you have some scientific basis to prove that reduced expectation leads to increased aggressiveness in seeking what you are told you can't have, then let's see it... but I and others know full well that the vast majority of humanity is reasonably intelligent and can understand limitations.
.
Note once again that there are umpteen sell-up opportunities presented to the customer during the purchase and check-in process that give the passenger the ability to spend as little as 7 bucks more to choose a confirmed seat, including economy comfort seats.
And there are equally as many advisories that the seats will be assigned at check-in and cannot be changed.
This is a marketing effort, part of DL's intent to obtain about $1B more in revenue from ancillary revenue -and I suspect your greatest fear is that DL will succeed and widen the gap between them and their airline peers.
.
Keep in mind that a roundtrip from the NE/midwest to Florida now runs $250 or more. The idea that a bunch of first time fliers who don't understand airline travel etiquette are going to drag the family out for a trip is far less likely now than it was years ago - and DL and other carriers managed to deal with these types of issues then.
Thanks to fuel there will be a whole lot LESS first time fliers and families traveling than there were in the past.
.
And there are indeed plenty of people who pay high value fares who board with no place for their carry-ons and are forced to check it, even though high revenue flyers generally are given the opportunity to board in the early zones.
I'm not sure why it is so difficult to accept that seat selection works the same way - the earlier you have the chance to choose, the more likely you will get what you want.
.
we'll see what the test results show but my gut says that DL didn't invest in the programming necessary to support the program without intending to move forward, and that DL is providing the necessary training to its employees, and it has done as good if not better requirement than other network airlines have done in advising customers of each of the services they are purchasing and what is included and what is not included.
.
And, once again, DL has a pretty strong record -indeed far better than average for US network carriers - of figuring out how to successively compete with low fare carriers and retain their market presence.

 

[eolesen]

I haven't seen any evidence that people are going to expect anything more than they already get. By the logic you are using, people who are paying less are going to demand more - and DL employees are going to be less able to say no than they are today. If you have some scientific basis to prove that reduced expectation leads to increased aggressiveness in seeking what you are told you can't have, then let's see it... but I and others know full well that the vast majority of humanity is reasonably intelligent and can understand limitations.

Tell you what, Tim. Go work as a gate agent at JFK for a week, and let me know if your "people who are paying less will demand less" hypothesis hold up.

Scientific proof? No, but I worked at the airports, and I still travel 100 days out of the year.

If anything, there's almost an inverse correlation between price and expectations.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sure it flies in the face of all of our prides to think that someone else might have the answer but I think I'll defer to a company that boards over 150 million passengers per year to come up with the answer that makes sense for them.
I certainly don't know if it makes sense anymore than I can know if buying a refinery is in their best interest.
They are also operating at above average metrics in just about every category - I think they have demonstrated they can weigh all the considerations and come up with a valid answer.
.
Once again this is a test... but one that appears to be the soft launch of a new type of product offering rather than the consideration of a particular product given that they have obviously done a lot of preparation.
.
Like everything else, DL is thinking out of the box and potentially gaining an advantage over competitors - and that is not good news for some people.

 

[Kev3188]

If anything, there's almost an inverse correlation between price and expectations.

^This^

Like everything else, DL is thinking out of the box and potentially gaining an advantage over competitors - and that is not good news for some people.

This isn't new thinking at all. It's old ground that's been covered before by other carriers.

 

[FWAAA]

I've clicked on all the links and read about this, but I didn't see any mention that seat changes would not be allowed, only that the passengers would not be able to self-assign their seat assignment. Do the boarding passes really say "No Seat Changes Allowed?"

My other question is this: Where are the savings for DL in these tickets to justify the lower fare? They're still eligible for elite upgrades and earn Skymiles. So where, exactly, are the savings?

 

[eolesen]

So where, exactly, are the savings?

There are none. This is more about making sure that DL always shows up as competitive with the ULCC's when someone does a fare search in the OTA's that DL chooses to do business with.

Something else that hasn't come into the discussion.... DL sent this out to agencies:

Fare Shopping, Pricing Low Fare Products, Low- Fare Finders, and Self Booking Tools

When using low-fare finder type options or self-booking tools that search for the lowest fares, it is important to note the following:

• Basic Economy will likely be returned, as it is the lowest fare
  
• The Basic Economy fare will be nonrefundable, non-changeable and will not permit advanced seat assignments
  
• If the Basic Economy fare is selected, the customer must be notified of all the fare rules. In addition, expectations of the travel experience must be clearly explained.

So, despite the claims that this will always be an informed decision, there are going to be unsuspecting business travelers who wind up booked in E, show up at the airport and will be taken entirely by surprise.

The corporate booking tools provided by travel agencies and GDS's are pretty much worthless. It's hard enough to discern what the change fees are, much less identify more punative policies like this which can be buried just about anywhere in free text within the fare rules.


Tim, you can play know it all on this along with your extensive knowledge of aircraft operating costs and running an oil refinery, but I don't think you have all the answers, considering you've been away from the industry for what, four years now? Five?

I've looked at this scenario with two other carriers in the past three years, and neither one found that it was worth risking the erosion unless they also took away FF accrual, and that was a sacred cow.

And yes, as long as mileage accrual is still permitted, you'll see a few elites buying these if they're in a tier where they know they'll get upgraded. It's proven fact -- just ask anyone who worked at HP when they had their pre-paid coupon books, or anyone who worked a ticket counter at AA when they had the senior coupon books. I can't verify it as a scientific fact since it was 10+ years ago, but we issued a heck of a lot of tickets against SC's for Golds & Platinums...

 

[WorldTraveler]

FWA,
yep, the BPs say "NO SEAT CHANGES"
And yes agencies can issue the economy basic fares - but I believe they are also excluded from incentive programs.

Eric,
for about 3 years that we have been running into each other (and I don't mean brushing lightly in the hallways), you have been trying to make whatever DL does as something between me and you.
.
I've got a newsflash for you.
Delta doesn't really care what you think.
They've got people who are well paid who have made plenty of solid decisions behind them and they haven't lost sight of what it takes to make a good decision.
They really don't care that you've flown around the world 36 times already this year and we're only 1/4 way through - and you've managed to convince other airlines it isn't worth it.
If it makes you feel better to post it, go right ahead, but I really don't care either.
.
Might I once again add that DL is the ONLY legacy airline that still retains its local market share (absolute and/or relative) as it did when it had hubs there in EVERY ONE of its former hubs.
While you would like to point out the failure of airlines within airlines, I will also note that DL has not only retained its position in the key NYC-Florida markets which were the heart of both Delta Express and Song but DL is in fact LARGER than it was in NYC when DLX and Song were created.
Further, DL has retained or improved its relative market position in every one of the top 50 markets in the US over the past five years.
.
Not a single other US airline can say the same thing.
.
In fact, the "school" where you learned the business has shuttered not one, not two, but no less than four hubs - and in every one of them, AA is no longer even the dominant network carrier in those cities, let alone among all airlines.
Further, your experience in airport operations and its associated headquarters operations does not qualify you as an expert on pricing and network issues.

.
DL is profitable and expanding its domestic network while other network carriers are retreating from their former hubs and losing market share to low fare carriers.
Shall I note that even in NYC, AA's former home and one of the most competitive markets in the world, DL has more than doubled its market share over the past five years.
.
You predicted WN would swoop into ATL and take all kinds of market share; in fact, WN/FL is smaller today than they were when the merger occurred, and they will shrink even further.
In the meantime, some of AA's DFW and ORD top markets have been overrun by new competitors who have established double digit market share - and it has come largely at AA's expense. And the hits just keep coming.
.
So you can spout all you want about why you wouldn't do what DL is doing, but their track record stands heads and shoulders above anyone else's in the US industry, and I dare say well above yours too.
.
And since you have gone on record as opposed to the Basic Economy product, it is all but certain that DL will expand it and will succeed in the process.
.
You can figure out what your next step is but I might suggest that you would be wise to quit arguing about things over which you have no control and about which others have a pretty good chance of succeeding at despite your dissonance.

 

[eolesen]

Oh, Tim, Tim, Tim.... I'm not sure what happened with you and DL, or why you want to make every discussion a comparison against AA.

It's a rather sick obsession on your part at times, and one where you go to ridiculous lengths (both in argument and in prose) to try and convince people otherwise.

You can claim that you're the only person with pricing or network experience, but you'd be wrong.

The fact is that I'm working with ops research, while you're off being a missionary. I'm assuming you know how that supports both RM and network planning.

The fact is that I've worked directly with two other carriers who were pursuing a cabin within a cabin product, helping both define and quantify the right mix of fare family and loyalty attributes. I even chatted earlier tonight with one of the guys responsible for Basic Economy at DL (who, btw, agreed with the points brought up here regarding FF dilution).

You, on the other hand, have probably read a few press releases...

Might I once again add that DL is the ONLY legacy airline that still remains its local market share in EVERY ONE of its former hubs.

Again, you're wrong.

DL is a fragment of what they had in DFW.

DL lost share at MCO (since you reminded people that DLX was such a success), where B6 now outboards DL

DL lost share at FLL (since you brought up Song), where NK and B6 both outboard DL

Arguably, DL also lost share at BOS, which you probably won't admit was a hub, but it certainly was for BEX in the 90's while they were flying as both DL* and NW*, and NW also had a bunch of international service there in that timeframe. B6 outboards DL by about 1500-2000 seats a day

And seriously, does it really matter that DL is still the biggest in SLC, MEM, or CVG? DL's got a whopping ~125 flights left at CVG; they had 600 a day at one point. Prior to the Pinnacle bankruptcy, MEM had ~145 departures.

Combined, they represent about 46,000 seats a day. That's smaller than DL @ MSP, or AA @ MIA.

Put another way, those 3 hubs combined represent 7% of DL's daily departures.



You're right that DL has increased it's market share in "every one of the top 50 markets in the US over the past five years" ---- that's because they were an also-ran until the NWA merger.


WN & FL are still offering over 200 flights a day @ ATL. That's more than twice as many seats as what DL is boarding in BOS, CVG, or MEM (and I'm guessing will soon be more than MEM & CVG combined).


Granted, DL's made some well timed acquisitions and some smart marketing moves. They've also laid a few turds.

When you're growing, it's easy to point at the successes. But when you're at the top, there's only one way left to go, and nobody stays at the top forever.


Now.... since you're so willing lately to give everyone else advise on how they should proceed, here's some for you:

1) Save the preaching for your congregation
2) Spend a little more time trying to spread the real Gospel, as opposed to spreading the words of Richard Anderson
3) You left the industry. If your track record were so great, you'd probably not be pursuing a second career in ministry

Good goes round, Tim.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thank you for proving my point exactly, Eric.
.
In an attempt to justify your right to comment on DL's issues, you not only try to take a stab at me who clearly understands DL- while at the same time touting your credentials do as if that gives you some right to comment on a subject over which you have no control - absolutely none.
.
Delta doesn't care if you think unbundling the fare is a good idea or not - and neither I or they care about whether you have managed to convince other airlines if it is a good idea or not.
.
Let's summarize what I have said about the Economy Basic Fare:
1. It is a TEST - no one else has acknowledged that. DL, as with any company, has the right to alter their product offerings based on market acceptance and profitability.
2. Although it is a test, it would appear that it is well-planned because they have put a significant amount of effort into segregating the product from their other products - and have clearly noted the differences in the Economy Basic product both to the consumers and travel agencies as well as to their employees.
3. DL has made it clear that it intends to generate $1B or more in NEW ancillary revenue this year - unbundling the product has been used by every network/legacy airline in North America as well as nearly all of the low fare carriers. It should come as no surprise that DL will be developing products that provide the opportunity for DL to allow customers to pick and choose what they want to pay for, while creating new revenue for DL.
4. DL has THE BEST track record among US network airlines in defending its markets from low fare carriers.
5. No change is easy - and this fare DOES require that the customer facing DL employees who are involved with this product just as they have had to with products like Economy Comfort, WiFi onboard, specialty cocktails etc. But those employees have learned their job and are delivering what they have been asked to do.
6. There is NO EVIDENCE - NONE - that what DL is doing with the advance seat selection or refundability/change aspects of the EB product is anything they haven't dealt with before - and haven't figured out how to successfully manage.
.
but there's more:
.
Apparently you weren't asked to consult for Air Canada - or if you were, they handedly tossed your opinion out the window and proceeded the way they wanted.
Because, Eric, despite all the positioning that you want to make regarding how much knowledge you have on the subject, Air Canada, an airline with a whole lot more experience than you have ever had, decided years ago to unbundle their product. They even bothered to create cute little names for all their various fare classes, each of which have differing product attributes. ON their lowest type of fare, they do not allow seat selection - unless the customer is willing to pay for it. Ding, ding, ding. There is indeed another large legacy airline in North America with a similar business model who also competes against low fare carriers that has unbundled seat selection for some fare types - and they have had the audacity to do so for years. Either AC is really stupid in not seeing the problems or they are hell bent to proceed full steam ahead anyway.
And you know what? There are no volumes of complaints in the DOT's databases about little Bubbettes being seated next to businessmen who have to babysit them.
.
What you need to accept, Eric, is that there are a whole lot of people in the world who have a whole lot more knowledge about a whole lot more subjects than you. And alot of those same people also have the wisdom to apply that knowledge correctly.
.
More significantly, the chance you'd like to think you have to make the decision for DL or even have any impact doesn't exist - and it won't.
.
There isn't a person on this thread who works for DL in a customer facing position, let alone in one of the test cities for the Economy Basic Fare, me included. Not a person here works in Marketing and Network/Revenue Mgmt who undoubtedly dreamed up the fare.
Which pretty well means that not a single person here gets to have any input on the whole concept.
.
You have never worked at Delta Air Lines, have no clue on what makes Delta work, and by your own admission don't even fly them - whcih pretty well means you are nothing more than a a disconnected party on the internet who has no basis for participation other than in an attempt to bolster your own personal credentials, which ironically take a hit every time you take a position on an issue over which you have no control and which ends up working despite your objections - and there is a pretty substantial list of those.
.
So continue the personal attacks and attempts to discredit other people while tooting your own horn- but it doesn't change the fact that you get no say in this decision, NONE. And you will very likely be shown to have been wrong. AGAIN.
.
While you're home licking your wounds, you might want to look up the definition of a legacy airline. I'll give you a clue. B6 and its less- than- a- generation- old friends are not one.
.
You can also have a look at the terms absolute and/or relative. If you understood those terms you would realize that DL is still the #2 carrier at DFW, just as it was when it operated a hub there. It is still the number one LEGACY airline in every major Florida city except for MIA as well as for the entire state, exactly as it has been since before Song and Express.
The difference is that DL moved all of those aircraft that were carrying connecting passengers over DFW and those widebodies that were serving Florida and moved them elsewhere, including NYC where DL has doubled its market share AND has displaced AA as the 2nd largest carrier - and it is very possible might surpass UA this year as the LGA hub is developed.
.
The simple, fact, Eric, is that DL walked into BK and successfully turned itself around and transformed its business model while AA has spent a decade trying to figure out how to adapt - and in the process has lost billions of dollars, missed one strategic opportunity after another, and has given up billions of dollars in market revenue to competitors. AA has shrunk to a shadow of its former self and has yet to demonstrate that it has what it takes to exist as a standalone airline.
That ain't my opinion, Eric. Those are facts. And they have nothing to do with whatever opinions I have about AA.
.
And in the face of AA's track record, you seem to find it your calling in life to defend AA mgmt. And even though you express your disgust that a number of people who you left behind to run AA so you could go run around the world trying to convince everyone how great you are, some of those same people have chosen to make political hay out of the hailstorm that now leaves AA highly dependent on its employees to get the airline up and running again and many of them now could care less if the company lives or dies.
.
Guess what, Eric? You forfeited your chance to have a say in AA's future.
.
I have no idea why you left AA but I have a very strong feeling you couldn't fit in at a large organization where you are expected to do one thing well - and leave the rest of the decisions to others who are also charged with doing their thing well.
.
And not only do you have no say in AA's future, you don't have a say in DL's - or a whole lot of other airlines'.
.
On top of the fact that you have no influence over alot of things about which you obviously think you should, you also are clearly stepping into areas over which you have no experience at any airline - and your lack of knowledge on those topics outside of your core area of experience and training is glaringly obvious.
.
While you're spending a few moments in reflection, why don't you ask yourself what is going on inside of you that you have felt the need for years to guard your territory on forums and become downright hostile when someone butts into the space that you think is yours.
.
A parting word for you, Eric.
Quit trying so hard to convince the world that you are so great.
If you really are, others will figure it out and give you the accolades you deserve.
And until you figure that basic concept out, you will continue to be confronted by people who will demonstrate how little you actually do know about alot of the things you think you know well.
.
And the longer you hold onto that grudge about being called out for what you say and do erroneously, the longer you wil continue to look like a fool - because no one thinks well when they are looking for revenge.

 

[Kev3188]

thank you for proving my point exactly, Eric.
.
In an attempt to justify your right to comment on DL's issues, you not only try to take a stab at me who clearly understands DL- while at the same time touting your credentials do as if that gives you some right to comment on a subject over which you have no control - absolutely none.

So, let me get this straight... You accuse E of making this personal, and then proceed to type a long post doing just that? Seems hypocritical...


An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, right?

Guess what, Eric? You forfeited your chance to have a say in AA's future.

Couldn't the same be said of you & DL?

 

[WorldTraveler]

There's a big difference between E and every other person on this forum, including me.
.
Everyone else seems to get the concept that this is an AMATEUR forum on which people are free to exchange their personal ideas - and everyone else (save E) accept them as such. No one was required to present their professional credentials and the board rules are actually quite clear that members ARE NOT FREE to disclose information about other members which those members have not chosen to divulge about themselves.
.
E has tried for years to turn this forum into a domain where he can push his own professional accomplishments and bask in the glory of all that he has accomplished and does - while at the same time hacking away at everyone else's credibility and credentials if they don't agree with him.
.
No one else on this forum - NOT ONE - attempts to not only justify their positions but attempt to rip everyone else's to shreds based on their credentials or someone else's lack of credentials.
.
NO ONE.
.
You might notice, Kevin, that I NEVER ONCE said in this thread that I recommended DL's actions - nor have I regarding the refinery.
.
.
I have repeatedly said that this is a test - and DL has mechanisms in place to gain the appropriate feedback to measure the success of the program - and/or make alterations to it.
.

What I have done is clearly voice solid reasons WHY DL would consider the EB program and demonstrate that DL has a solid track record on which to make such a decision.
.
I have absolutely no input in anything that DL does - and have never said I did.
.
I have repeatedly provided insight as to why DL does what it does on topics about which I too have a pretty clear track record of being right. DL has demonstrated that it has succeeded far beyond its peers with respect to network and revenue management.

.
A proper perspective of the purpose of this forum should be kept firmly in mind. Those that choose to come on here touting their professional credentials as the basis for why something over which they have no control - and quite frankly oftentimes a significant lack of knowledge and experience - should or should not be done might do well to remember their place in life.
.
And then bury the hatchet which they want to swing trying desperately to prove others wrong - all in a flailing attempt to boost their own egos.
.
There is nothing hypocritical about calling out that type of behavior.
.
And since E wants to bring up the Gospel, there are way too many people that think Jesus Christ was a mamby pamby limp-wristed prophet who had no mind and couldn't defend Himself.
Take a gander through the New Testament and you'll see that Jesus went right to the Temple after His baptism and trial in the desert in order to tangle with the religious authorities and do what Jesus needed to do - including healing people, not what the religious establishment thought should be done. (Luke 4. 14 and following)
Just hours after Jesus rode into Jerusalem to cheering crowds on what we celebrate as Palm Sunday, Jesus went into the Temple and threw out the merchants that he believed had defiled it.
Jesus had no problem calling people out for their wrong thoughts and actions.
.
The only reason why E would like to see me focus on the Gospel is so he can be free to post whatever he wants on this forum without being challenged.
.
Thank you very much but I'll leave religion for other places... this is a forum about aviation which is not limited to a few who tout their credentials and/or employment - past or present - as the basis for which they should be free to trump someone else's opinions.

 

[Kev3188]

...There you go again; another long post about Eric.

Calling someone out while doing for something, while doing the exact same thing to try and prove your point is not the way to go.

 

[WorldTraveler]

...There you go again; another long post about Eric.

Calling someone out while doing for something, while doing the exact same thing to try and prove your point is not the way to go.

no, Kevin, it's about BEHAVIOR.
Behavior that he displays - and everyone else seems to understand doesn't belong here.
Denouncing a person's behavior does not mean denouncing the person. I have every reason to believe E is probably a reasonably bright and decent person. I have enjoyed interacting with him here when he has been able to suppress his urge to prove other people wrong and himself right.
I will continue to look forward to interacting with any member of this forum who can respect the thoughts and ideas of other people and respect their right to privacy and each one's basis for participating on this forum.
.
This forum is an amateur forum where people are free to contribute based on their own perspectives - with or without whatever experience they might or might not have in the industry.
And everyone on here is free to disclose or not disclose whatever they choose.
.
That behavior is the crux of my discussion.
.
The fact that E is the one that displays it while others don't doesn't change the fact that it is wrong behavior - and if he gets called out for it, then the obvious response would be to change the behavior.

 

[eolesen]

Tim, I think you really just don't like the fact that it's possible I might be better connected at DL than you are.

Case and point, I just got off the phone with one of the guys who worked with Bob Kupbens on BE.

I'm sure you and Bob probably know each other well. Oh, wait. You couldn't know him. You've been gone too long.

I'm not here to tout my credentials, Tim. But I will mention things that are relevant when it comes to understanding what my opinions are based on. Having worked on proposals like BE for other airlines, I'm not just some guy phoning it in. It's no different than when Kev or someone else brings their experiences into the discussion.


As for this being an amateur forum.... by definition, you're wrong again.

By definition, if you're talking about the industry where your career is centered, you're no longer considered an amateur.

Guys like Bob Owens and Kev who actually work for an airline aren't amateurs. It's a career choice for them, as it is for me working for a supplier. Guys like BoeingBoy and Bears survived in the industry long enough to actually retire. I wouldn't call elder statesmen amateurs, either.

You want amateurs? Amateurs are people who hang out on Airliners.net or FlyerTalk and chat about pretty airplanes and how to game the system to get more miles.

Maybe you should take your shtick over to Airliners.net. Oh, wait. You can't. They banned you there.

Why?

Your behavior. You couldn't handle being the second or third smartest guy in the room, and once upstaged, had a tendency to go into personal tirades.

See a pattern emerging, folks?....

 

[eolesen]

Getting back to the topic instead of the ad homs, a friend just confirmed that a Platinum couldn't pre-reserve a seat for an E fare, so at least we know elite status isn't trumping the fare rules.