E-190 Preparations...

[careerfurloughee]

If it does how about if this time we call it the “Interesting Project Minnowâ€￾ discussions or IPW discussions.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

How do you get IPW out of "Interesting Project Minnow"?

 

[767jetz]

Separately, 767jetz, it’s good to see you back even with your nonsensical comments, which are not germane to the discussion.

I believe your comments are intended to “shoot the messengerâ€￾ out of anger...

USA320Pilot

This quote (as predictable as it was) shows how out of touch with reality you really are. And repeating the same old things over and over and over only serves to demonstates your lack of original thinking and imagination.

I am quite indifferent to your opinions. Therefore there is no emotion what-so-ever, neither positive nor negative, behind my points.

My comments were not even directed to you, as you assume. They were directed to everyone else on this forum, who can respect competing opinions and ideas, and who understand exactly how germaine my points are to this dicussion.

As for exposing your true motivations, that is just an unfortunate side effect of the truth. Please don't shoot the messenger. But frankly, I think everyone knows you well enough by now anyway. I was just restating the obvious.

Now back to the subject at hand. I think the only fair solution is to consider the 757/767 type aircraft as a seperate type, and slot everyone below the most junior A330 pilot. The true widebody guys should certainly be protected. Beyond that, everyone from both sides had career expectations of flying the 320/737 and the 757.

The AWA pilots certainly have every right to expect their fair share of 757 seats. You yourself acknowledge the "potential seniority integration damage" of 757 growth to the AW pilots. And according to ALPA merger policy, no one should experience an windfall at the expense of another. Position and career expecation is to be protected.

So whatever their motivation, it is reasonable and acceptable.

767jetz

 

[luvn737s]

The Shuttle integration model is a non-starter. AWA/U is nothing like the TS/U merger, therefore it's solution will most likely not resemble the Shuttle integration either. No pilot should need to fear for their seat. And by protecting the rights of AWA pilots to their fair share of growth flying, AWALPA are making a statement to the company that agreements must be honored, something I think both sides (east and West) should support.

USA320 Pilot - If you really think an arbitrator is going to grant the side with 17-20% more active pilots 30+% of the captain slots, then when would now be a good time to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[767jetz]

USA320 Pilot - If you really think an arbitrator is going to grant the side with 17-20% more active pilots 30+% of the captain slots, then when would now be a good time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Agreed.

 

[Atlantic]

Given that the entire west operation is responsible for any seniority past last year for the east pilots, it hardly seems unreasonable to give them some percentage of those seats.

Moreover, your analogy only holds in US-East terms. If these guys could hold a 757 seat out west, presumably it would not take 25 years (or whatever the bogey number is) that it would take an East guy to hold the seat (pre-merger).

Given that the entire west operation is responsible for any seniority past last year for the east pilots, it hardly seems unreasonable to give them some percentage of those seats.

Moreover, your analogy only holds in US-East terms. If these guys could hold a 757 seat out west, presumably it would not take 25 years (or whatever the bogey number is) that it would take an East guy to hold the seat (pre-merger).

Wrong.
And wrong again.

 

[BoeingBoy]

767jetz,

Just FYI, the 757/767 are the only group I airplanes - the A330 wasn't in the picture when we went to the "group" payscales. I guess you could call the A330 "group 0" since it has it's own payscale, though it's really called simply the A330 payscale and not group anything.

I really have no idea how the arbitration will come out, assuming that's where it ends up. There are enough differences between this merger and the Shuttle integration to justify a completely different outcome.

I just can't see the logic in calling our 757's group I while assigning the West 757's to group II, especially based on a fairly small pay difference. That's precisely what Nicolau rejected when he said that the Shuttle 727's were group II, even though the Shuttle pay on the 727 was lower than the US group II rate.

Jim

ps - PineyBob, Lakefield may have been the one that did the shaking of that money tree, but I'd just note that the leaves weren't falling very fast till he had the merger to pitch.

 

[767jetz]

767jetz,

Just FYI, the 757/767 are the only group I airplanes - the A330 wasn't in the picture when we went to the "group" payscales. I guess you could call the A330 "group 0" since it has it's own payscale, though it's really called simply the A330 payscale and not group anything.

Gotcha. I thought the 330 and 767/757 were group I. Anyway, I totally agree that putting the US 757 in group I and AWA 757 in group II is illogical.

Every merger integration is unique, and those who think they can hang their hat on one past example or another will be disappointed.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Every merger integration is unique, and those who think they can hang their hat on one past example or another will be disappointed.

Probably not truer words can be said.....

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

Gotcha. I thought the 330 and 767/757 were group I. Anyway, I totally agree that putting the US 757 in group I and AWA 757 in group II is illogical.

Of course it is.

The other thing is this: at the time of the merger, one might say that a much higher percentage of the AWA group had any career expectation of actually flying one.

 

[USA320Pilot]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss E-190 preparations and my comments about the B757 growth issue was to show the AWA MEC's motivation to obtain this week's agreement. Moreover, it provides a clue on how negotiations could play out in EMB-190 negotiations.

Firthermore, I understand from informed ALPA sources that:

- The B757 growth LOU is likely against ALPA policy and Nicolau's previous awards.

- Nicolau will not allow out-of-seniority placement under any award that he hands out. I know believe Dan Katz knew that and advised the US Airways MEC accordingly.

- Doug Parker will not accept the LOU since it causes more training events and creates more cost.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[RowUnderDCA]

When a AWA A320 captain bids for and gets 757 HI flying on AWA, over the course of his/her career, what kind of pay increase can he/she expect?

When a LCC A320 captain bids for and gets 757 domestic flying on LCC, over the course of his/her career, what kind of pay increase can he/she expect?

When a LCC A320 captain bids for and gets 757 international flying on LCC, over the course of his/her career, what kind of pay increase can he/she expect?

Would an arbitrator think that the answers to these questions would or would not be relevant to a determination of career expectations of a seniority path on the respective carriers if not merged?

I really don't know, from my very limited understanding, I'd be tempted to consider that info. How I would weigh it, I have no idea.

 

[TheLarkAscending]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss E-190 preparations and my comments about the B757 growth issue was to show the AWA MEC's motivation to obtain this week's agreement. Moreover, it provides a clue on how negotiations could play out in EMB-190 negotiations.

The purpose of this thread is plainly displayed on the US forum page, for someone to whine about how they've steered it in another direction and then complain about the differing/opposing responses regarding their posts is quite amusing; the toothpaste is already out of the tube!

Firthermore[sic], I understand from informed ALPA sources that:

We were all curious to see just how long it would take, after :wacko: had begun to receive dissenting view points that are intellectually valid, and completely logical challenges to typical :wacko: discourse, for :wacko: to decide to pull out the "Super Secret Imaginary Sources" playbook. As always, very predictable, yet altogether quite entertaining!

Each and every negotiation/integration/merger arbitration is unique and will be determined by those exceptional and unusual variables. Using past examples to determine, with any amount of confidence, future outcomes is: illogical, invalid, irrational, unreasonable; farcical, laughable, ludicrous, and ridiculous. I believe that about covers it!

Thanks so much for the laughs this morning.

 

[aquagreen73s]

>>Firthermore, I understand from informed ALPA sources that:

- The B757 growth LOU is likely against ALPA policy and Nicolau's previous awards<<

East proposed it, West accepted it. You can stop with the inflammatory mudslinging anytime. This process is already sensitive enough without the assistance of troblemakers like yourself.

 

[Atlantic]

Boing Boy says that the AB300 is outside group 1 A/C. I would add that the 757 Atlantic is also out side the rates because of the override. And by the East MEC, West pilots got Super seniority for seats that was never on their radar. That puts them at a pay rate that's not even in their contract. These 14 brothers got a winfall and we are not out blocks yet.

 

[ab320driver]

Boing Boy says that the AB300 is outside group 1 A/C. I would add that the 757 Atlantic is also out side the rates because of the override. And by the East MEC, West pilots got Super seniority for seats that was never on their radar. That puts them at a pay rate that's not even in their contract. These 14 brothers got a winfall and we are not out blocks yet.

It sounds like a good-will gesture on the East MEC part. We'll see if it's a one way street... <_<