Example of an inept association

[Anomaly]

This is what you would have expected with association representation.

Apparently amfa has more important things to do than making improvements for the members.


http://amfa32.com/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=292987

AMT Negotiations: May 30, 2013
Currently AMFA has determined, based on several higher priority issues, to suspend negotiations for the time being to try and resolve these other issues. We are still committed to resolve these issues and reconvene negotiations soon as possible. Our last session was March 8th 2013, the following Articles have been T/A’d.
Article 1- Purpose of Agreement- No changes
Article 12- Leaves of Absence, changing language for every 30 day written request to extend a leave to longer period on a case- by case- basis.
Article 17- Safety & Health, changes to the payout benefits for Death to $500,000, Loss of sight and 2 members to $500,000 & Total loss of one member & sight in 1 eye to $250,000 & any single incident to $2 million.
Article 26- Union Security- No changes
Article 27- Saving Clause- No changes
Articles in Work
Article 8- Field Service- Discussions focused on rules around International field service and clarification on domestic down lines
Article 21- Grievance Procedure- Working on the process for filing a grievance into actual steps in order and time lines for a more efficient process. Also, upon request of an Employee on OJI to receive the State & Federal Laws pertaining to the Employee’s domicile.
Article 22- Arbitration- Working toward discovery language for actions taken by the Company against an Employee.
Article 23- No Strike No Lockout- AMFA proposed language for the Company while in negotiations to not seek or hire replacement workers or lock members out.
Facilities Maintenance Negotiations:
As of the present time, we have dates set for a day and a half on June 6th & 7th 2013 to begin openers for our Facilities maintenance mechanics. The Committee will be utilizing Danny York as our subject matter expert for negotiations. We have proposals submitted by these members and they are under the Corporate Facilities umbrella. Updates will be forth coming once the sessions begin.
Station Closures- PHL & SMF:

 

[xUT]

Wow!
Negotiation updates on line.
Here is the reamsters update:



BAH!

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Wow!
Negotiation updates on line.
Here is the reamsters update:



BAH!

I was thinking the same thing xUT. A union providing transparent, real time, honest feedback on current events.

I can see where an Industrial catch all union mouth would be surprised, and upset by that.

Here is the latest from the IBT:

http://youtu.be/b5cZHyMqE5g

 

[1AA]

This is what you would have expected with association representation.

Apparently amfa has more important things to do than making improvements for the members.


http://amfa32.com/in...m&HomeID=292987

AMT Negotiations: May 30, 2013
Currently AMFA has determined, based on several higher priority issues, to suspend negotiations for the time being to try and resolve these other issues. We are still committed to resolve these issues and reconvene negotiations soon as possible. Our last session was March 8th 2013, the following Articles have been T/A’d.
Article 1- Purpose of Agreement- No changes
Article 12- Leaves of Absence, changing language for every 30 day written request to extend a leave to longer period on a case- by case- basis.
Article 17- Safety & Health, changes to the payout benefits for Death to $500,000, Loss of sight and 2 members to $500,000 & Total loss of one member & sight in 1 eye to $250,000 & any single incident to $2 million.
Article 26- Union Security- No changes
Article 27- Saving Clause- No changes
Articles in Work
Article 8- Field Service- Discussions focused on rules around International field service and clarification on domestic down lines
Article 21- Grievance Procedure- Working on the process for filing a grievance into actual steps in order and time lines for a more efficient process. Also, upon request of an Employee on OJI to receive the State & Federal Laws pertaining to the Employee’s domicile.
Article 22- Arbitration- Working toward discovery language for actions taken by the Company against an Employee.
Article 23- No Strike No Lockout- AMFA proposed language for the Company while in negotiations to not seek or hire replacement workers or lock members out.
Facilities Maintenance Negotiations:
As of the present time, we have dates set for a day and a half on June 6th & 7th 2013 to begin openers for our Facilities maintenance mechanics. The Committee will be utilizing Danny York as our subject matter expert for negotiations. We have proposals submitted by these members and they are under the Corporate Facilities umbrella. Updates will be forth coming once the sessions begin.
Station Closures- PHL & SMF:

And how long has the IBT been in negotiations at UAL/CAL?

Over three years and still no agreement in place.
You need to get your house in order before you go and dirty someone else's.

 

[Anomaly]

And how long has the IBT been in negotiations at UAL/CAL?

Over three years and still no agreement in place.
You need to get your house in order before you go and dirty someone else's.

You are a broken record with this. Like I told you before, Continental contract just ended December 31, 2012. UAL Contract will end this July, 2013. I am not sure where you are getting your three year statement from, but you need to do some research.

Oh wait....I forgot your a typical amfa guy. Forget about the research, just shoot from the hip as usual

 

[Anomaly]

Wow!
Negotiation updates on line.
Here is the reamsters update:



BAH!

Now that is funny.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

This is what you would have expected with teamsters representation.

Apparently the ibt has more important things to do than making improvements for the members.

http://www.unitednegotiations.com/employees/technicians/negotiations-updates/2013/05/30/negotiations-update-20130530/

United and Teamster leadership mutually agreed to suspend negotiations and assess appropriate next steps, including the timing and process for resuming bargaining.

 

[Bob Owens]

This is what you would have expected with association representation.

Apparently amfa has more important things to do than making improvements for the members.


http://amfa32.com/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=292987

AMT Negotiations: May 30, 2013
Currently AMFA has determined, based on several higher priority issues, to suspend negotiations for the time being to try and resolve these other issues. We are still committed to resolve these issues and reconvene negotiations soon as possible. Our last session was March 8th 2013, the following Articles have been T/A’d.
Article 1- Purpose of Agreement- No changes
Article 12- Leaves of Absence, changing language for every 30 day written request to extend a leave to longer period on a case- by case- basis.
Article 17- Safety & Health, changes to the payout benefits for Death to $500,000, Loss of sight and 2 members to $500,000 & Total loss of one member & sight in 1 eye to $250,000 & any single incident to $2 million.
Article 26- Union Security- No changes
Article 27- Saving Clause- No changes
Articles in Work
Article 8- Field Service- Discussions focused on rules around International field service and clarification on domestic down lines
Article 21- Grievance Procedure- Working on the process for filing a grievance into actual steps in order and time lines for a more efficient process. Also, upon request of an Employee on OJI to receive the State & Federal Laws pertaining to the Employee’s domicile.
Article 22- Arbitration- Working toward discovery language for actions taken by the Company against an Employee.
Article 23- No Strike No Lockout- AMFA proposed language for the Company while in negotiations to not seek or hire replacement workers or lock members out.
Facilities Maintenance Negotiations:
As of the present time, we have dates set for a day and a half on June 6th & 7th 2013 to begin openers for our Facilities maintenance mechanics. The Committee will be utilizing Danny York as our subject matter expert for negotiations. We have proposals submitted by these members and they are under the Corporate Facilities umbrella. Updates will be forth coming once the sessions begin.
Station Closures- PHL & SMF:

The way bargaining usually works is you take the latest contract from a competitor and make improvements over it, leapfrog. At $43/hr who is SW going to leapfrog over? The fact is in this case stalling is the best tactic because all the other mechanics in the industry are making much much less. If they ended up in a PEB they would lose.

I would imaging thats why the IBT is not exactly moving ahead at breakneck speed either with the UAL-CAL merger agreement, with the AA and US contracts out there they don't have anyplace to go either. We are so far behind they have to wait for our mid term wage adjustment before they have anywhere to go, even then they have no legacy to leapfrog over.

The IAM rushed into a deal that left their members at the bottom of the industry for eight years and counting, most likely because they wanted the dues from the America West guys as quick as possible, the IBT represents both groups at UAL-CAL so there is no rush. If anything there is pressure on the company because they are not gaining the efficiencies they would if it was all one.

The fact is that the TWU and IAM screwed every mechanic in the industry with their super concessionary deals.

If we were making a lot more money with better benefits and work rules I wouldn't be in a rush to get a deal, however when you are at the bottom thats the time to push to get to a deal or PEB, both the IAM and TWU did the opposite.

To me I say stall away, if they push it to a PEB there is a good possibility they could take a paycut. A loss at WN would put downward pressure at UAL-CAL which for us would mean a smaller mid term wage adjustment.

You need to find something else to criticize, that one is a dud.

 

[Bob Owens]

You are a broken record with this. Like I told you before, Continental contract just ended December 31, 2012. UAL Contract will end this July, 2013. I am not sure where you are getting your three year statement from, but you need to do some research.

Oh wait....I forgot your a typical amfa guy. Forget about the research, just shoot from the hip as usual

Yes but we are talking about a transition agreement at UAL-CAL. Normally in mergers they don't wait for Section 6 because the company wants to reap the benefits of consolidation.

I wouldn't be in a rush if I was at WN or UA. The type of negotiations doesn't change the Market Rate much.

WN earns around $5/hr more than UAL or CAL. Are you saying that if UAL/CAL were that far ahead of everyone they would Rush into a new deal? The fact is we(UAL, CAL, UsAir, AA and Delta) left them nowhere to go (Except UPS and FED Ex if you want to count them)

They really don't have much of a choice than to wait for us to catch up.

So I would not criticize the IBT or AMFA for not rushing into deals at this time, they both face the potential of a huge new AA out there with super low wages and benefits undercutting their employers ability to pay. My guess is that UAL also wants to see what the outcome of the representation elections at US and AA will be. There is a lot riding on that for every other airline, here is why.

If the IBT gets in at the New AA (AA&US) then they can make a deal with the IBT because they can be pretty confident that the IBT will present AA with very similar terms, in other words the race to the bottom between the unions will be over and the remaining union that has the overwhelming majority of mechanics will return to pattern bargaining. Concessions from workers would no longer be the cornerstone to their competitive strategy. If the mechanics at NEW AA remains with different unions or the new proposed "Association" the management at UAL wont know what to expect. Delta as usual will follow along with whatever benefits pattern bargaining produces because if they don't the IBT wont hesitate to spend $11 million to organize them.

 

[700UW]

The IAM didnt agree to a deal in 2005, why do you keep lying about it Bob?

The CBA was abrogated and, there was never an TA reached the judge made the membership vote on the final offer.

Dont let the facts get in your way, and in the 2008 transition agreement improvements were made in wages, benefits, scope, holidays, overtime, sick time and a pension.

Can you say the same about AA?

 

[Bob Owens]

The IAM didnt agree to a deal in 2005, why do you keep lying about it Bob?

The CBA was abrogated and, there was never an TA reached the judge made the membership vote on the final offer.

Dont let the facts get in your way, and in the 2008 transition agreement improvements were made in wages, benefits, scope, holidays, overtime, sick time and a pension.

Did the IAM offer the membership a plan to fight abrogation? Did they even attempt to gain support from the AFL-CIO and fight the disparate treatment that Airline Unions receive in BK compared to not only all other unions but all other creditors as well?

Where where the Fighting Machinists? The AA pilots faced the same thing, they ended up getting a double digit pension contribution to their 401K and they do not lag other pilots by as wide of a margin as your mechanics do, in fact the AA pilots are better paid coming out of BK than the US Pilots are 8 years after exiting BK.

What is the hourly rate plus premiums for a 12 year mechanic at US?

Even with the 2008 improvements when you factor in inflation your guys are still worse off not only before they entered BK in 2002 but even when they exited in 2005. Thats EIGHT years ago. The IAM rushed into a substandard deal so they could start collecting more dues and then kicked the can down the road while Parker courted the Unions at AA.

You can bring up AA all you want, I have never defended our part in destroying the profession.

 

[swamt]

This is what you would have expected with association representation.

Apparently amfa has more important things to do than making improvements for the members.


http://amfa32.com/in...m&HomeID=292987

AMT Negotiations: May 30, 2013
Currently AMFA has determined, based on several higher priority issues, to suspend negotiations for the time being to try and resolve these other issues. We are still committed to resolve these issues and reconvene negotiations soon as possible. Our last session was March 8th 2013, the following Articles have been T/A’d.
Article 1- Purpose of Agreement- No changes
Article 12- Leaves of Absence, changing language for every 30 day written request to extend a leave to longer period on a case- by case- basis.
Article 17- Safety & Health, changes to the payout benefits for Death to $500,000, Loss of sight and 2 members to $500,000 & Total loss of one member & sight in 1 eye to $250,000 & any single incident to $2 million.
Article 26- Union Security- No changes
Article 27- Saving Clause- No changes
Articles in Work
Article 8- Field Service- Discussions focused on rules around International field service and clarification on domestic down lines
Article 21- Grievance Procedure- Working on the process for filing a grievance into actual steps in order and time lines for a more efficient process. Also, upon request of an Employee on OJI to receive the State & Federal Laws pertaining to the Employee’s domicile.
Article 22- Arbitration- Working toward discovery language for actions taken by the Company against an Employee.
Article 23- No Strike No Lockout- AMFA proposed language for the Company while in negotiations to not seek or hire replacement workers or lock members out.
Facilities Maintenance Negotiations:
As of the present time, we have dates set for a day and a half on June 6th & 7th 2013 to begin openers for our Facilities maintenance mechanics. The Committee will be utilizing Danny York as our subject matter expert for negotiations. We have proposals submitted by these members and they are under the Corporate Facilities umbrella. Updates will be forth coming once the sessions begin.
Station Closures- PHL & SMF:

Once again: Like we have said before, we are in no hurry for a new contract. Like the above posting stated; " based on several higher priority issues, to suspend negotiations for the time being to try and resolve these other issues." "priority issues" Enough said... You know exactly what 1AA is referring to as to no contract for you guys in 3 years. You guys still have no JCBA in over 3 years with the same union, the teamsters... BTW; another reason we are in no hurry is the fact of what is right around the corner for Southwest. 2013- SWA is on track to hit 15% ROIC for the first time in decade, 2014-W/A goes bye-bye, and we will start reaping the rewards fully from the AirTran purchase, 2015 we will start major overseas flying... No hurry over hear chief!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Once again: Like we have said before, we are in no hurry for a new contract. Like the above posting stated; " based on several higher priority issues, to suspend negotiations for the time being to try and resolve these other issues." "priority issues" Enough said... You know exactly what 1AA is referring to as to no contract for you guys in 3 years. You guys still have no JCBA in over 3 years with the same union, the teamsters... BTW; another reason we are in no hurry is the fact of what is right around the corner for Southwest. 2013- SWA is on track to hit 15% ROIC for the first time in decade, 2014-W/A goes bye-bye, and we will start reaping the rewards fully from the AirTran purchase, 2015 we will start major overseas flying... No hurry over hear chief!!!

Its funny that he should bring that up, like you said the IBT is doing the same thing at UAL, and both unions in this case are probably doing the right thing, its not as if either group is currently in a position to make substantial gains, thanks to the US and AA contracts. US is profitable and all they are asking for is "Industry standard".

 

[FWAAA]

Where where the Fighting Machinists? The AA pilots faced the same thing, they ended up getting a double digit pension contribution to their 401K and they do not lag other pilots by as wide of a margin as your mechanics do, in fact the AA pilots are better paid coming out of BK than the US Pilots are 8 years after exiting BK.

Not exactly. Prior to Ch 11, AA pilots had a defined benefit pension plus 11% contributed by AA to a defined contribution plan.

AA's Ch 11 offer to the pilots was to terminate (then freeze) the DB pension and increase the 11% to 14% to make up for the frozen pension. After the pilot contract was abrogated, the pilots eventually settled on the AA offer of frozen DB plan plus 14% to their new 401k. The AA pilots didn't get any improvement in their retirement as a result of the abrogation and later settlement.

Later, Parker and the AA pilots agreed that the 14% would become 16% in their merger MOU.

 

[Anomaly]

The way bargaining usually works is you take the latest contract from a competitor and make improvements over it, leapfrog. At $43/hr who is SW going to leapfrog over? The fact is in this case stalling is the best tactic because all the other mechanics in the industry are making much much less. If they ended up in a PEB they would lose.

I would imaging thats why the IBT is not exactly moving ahead at breakneck speed either with the UAL-CAL merger agreement, with the AA and US contracts out there they don't have anyplace to go either. We are so far behind they have to wait for our mid term wage adjustment before they have anywhere to go, even then they have no legacy to leapfrog over.

The IAM rushed into a deal that left their members at the bottom of the industry for eight years and counting, most likely because they wanted the dues from the America West guys as quick as possible, the IBT represents both groups at UAL-CAL so there is no rush. If anything there is pressure on the company because they are not gaining the efficiencies they would if it was all one.

The fact is that the TWU and IAM screwed every mechanic in the industry with their super concessionary deals.

If we were making a lot more money with better benefits and work rules I wouldn't be in a rush to get a deal, however when you are at the bottom thats the time to push to get to a deal or PEB, both the IAM and TWU did the opposite.

To me I say stall away, if they push it to a PEB there is a good possibility they could take a paycut. A loss at WN would put downward pressure at UAL-CAL which for us would mean a smaller mid term wage adjustment.

You need to find something else to criticize, that one is a dud.

Come on Bob, I give you more credit than this.

Bargaining works by leap frogging sure, but what if you are at the top? For starters, SWA mechanics are not at the top in all areas. Their wages might be but they are behind the Teamsters in overall vacation time, defined pension benefits, and medical. Their amendable date was 8/16/2012 and after discussing only 9 articles (three of which had zero changes) they gave up?

As you said, leap frogging is normally the case, but not always. The Teamster Pilots at Horizon were and are still at the top of their industry in both wages and benefits yet they were able to negotiate a wage increase for all pilots in 2012 and another for the FO's in 2013. They did not get these increases by giving up.

UAL negotiations on the other hand, discussed each and every article of the agreement making and agreeing to changes in just about every area over a 6 month period. We suspended negotiations only after hearing the companies best offer in wages and benefits. Our negotiating team obviously believed the offer was not high enough to reach an agreement with the members and requested the company re-think. Now in our case at UA, it is completely clear that the company would like a new contract in order to take full advantage of the merger. We expect the company to come back with some new suggestions in order to complete a deal. That is completely opposite from what amfa did at SWA. They were not at the end of a process or at an impasse. amfa is simply too busy!? Seriously?

You and others talk about the benefits of waiting for....whatever? But how do you know things will not turn for the worse? Oil and wars is always an unknown? The demand for travel is at a high right now but what changes will affect that? The industry right now is generally profitable, but how long will this last? What FAA changes are on the horizon that could affect our industry? Are you sure the right course of action is to give the company a pass?

Moreover, the message written by amfa can be interpreted as they lack necessary resources to be able to handle multiple issues at once. amfa specifically stated the suspension was due to "higher priority issues". What are they planning to do with a write in campaign at AA? If amfa wins, then what?

Is the association truly serious about the desire to represent AA M&R? It looks to me like they are not. If they are too "busy" now to negotiate a contract, what are they going to do when they suddenly find themselves with several thousand new members? Will they continue to indefinitely suspend the SWA members interests putting them behind their new cash cow? Or will they continue to use the excuse that there is nothing they can do for AA except collect dues? At least the Teamsters have made a written commitment to attempt to open the agreement and get AA mechanics to a better place. amfa says they are too busy to be messing around with the members interests right now....

Think about that before you decide to write them in on a ballot.