FA TA voted down

[ContUNITEus]

33.33% of me feels sorry for all the poor America West flight attendants with less than 10 years for not getting the so much desired pay raise.

33.33% of me feels like, uhhm: "You go girl" @ all the combined F/As who said that this second proposal was not enough, and rejected it.

33.33% of me feels like, yeah... "Fxxxk U, Doug, Kirby and all the rest of your posse. Another failure on your part!"

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Is That like when your Mechanics did the same thing. Were they not told something along the lines that they were confused? Looking at the results I don't think there was any confusion. It was a lot closer this time around. A few less people voted probably because they gave up on any hope. It is still majority rules and by a small margin the flight attendants spoke. Perhaps rather than re-voting again and again your company and union leaders except they are going to need to make some more real changes to get a vote. Problem is your company is once again solely focused on a merger and your union leaders are just now figuring this out. They negotiated for almost eight years now, During which time they tried to acquire Delta and made it known more than once that there was a need for consolidation. The American rumor has been in play for several years now. For the unions part they seem a little behind with recognizing this has been one of the biggest concerns for you flight attendant group. Talk about outdated negotiating methods. This second time around they threw more dollars at the hourly salary, changed a word or two and pretty much called it a day. I think the merger issue along with some major concerns for a host of other issues like your insurance outweighed the dollar amount for the majority. They know the risks at this point.

So yes, you could probably keep re-voting until you get the outcome you desire. Or, all parties involved could make a real effort to fix the concerns that the flight attendants have. Your re-voting idea makes the whole process about as honest as a Saddam Hussein referendum. Recount votes if you like, but re-voting is not the proper process of a supposed democratic election.

OUTDATED NEGOTIATING METHODS! AMEN!, My guess your 4steps above, or just a guess?

 

[ContUNITEus]

I disagree with the "outdated negotiating methods" comment above. There is only so much that the union negotiators can do when dealing with management people at US Airways. Everybody that sits outside always claims that they can do it better at the union. Once you are inside, though, you quickly learn that things are not as easy as you thought they would be. The bottom line is that you are dealing with a company that does not operate in any shape or form with any interest to truly negotiate in good faith.

The culprit here is only one - the company.

To anyone from AA that thinks that US Airways is a better solution, think twice.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I disagree with the "outdated negotiating methods" comment above. There is only so much that the union negotiators can do when dealing with management people at US Airways. Everybody that sits outside always claims that they can do it better at the union. Once you are inside, though, you quickly learn that things are not as easy as you thought they would be. The bottom line is that you are dealing with a company that does not operate in any shape or form with any interest to truly negotiate in good faith.

The culprit here is only one - the company.

To anyone from AA that thinks that US Airways is a better solution, think twice.

NO TOPPING THAT STATEMENT!

 

[PITbull]

UPNAWAY,

35,000 employees are there because they have waited patiently, to fight another day...

and low and behold...

that day has arrived.

P.S....Minority have rights, but majority rules. Check your history book again, pal...back at you.

 

[Onestep2flt]

I disagree with the "outdated negotiating methods" comment above. There is only so much that the union negotiators can do when dealing with management people at US Airways. Everybody that sits outside always claims that they can do it better at the union. Once you are inside, though, you quickly learn that things are not as easy as you thought they would be. The bottom line is that you are dealing with a company that does not operate in any shape or form with any interest to truly negotiate in good faith.

The culprit here is only one - the company.

To anyone from AA that thinks that US Airways is a better solution, think twice.

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. However, your union made money the priority after the failed T/A. They made the point very clear several times in public statements that this is what they thought was the biggest concern. This worked out great for management in the public view. "Those greedy flight attendants" don't you know! While more money is always great, you must look at the whole contract to figure what your compansation is. Remember, that is what this was about to begin with. As you stated very eloquently, there is only so much the union could do. My point is they did not do enough with what they were able to.They wasted what they had to work with to get a dollar amount that would get the T/A 2 to pass. It was not all about the dollars!

You are right that it is easy for us to be back seat drivers. Your company is also the culprit. BUT, your union leaders share some of the responsibilities though. At this point though, it should be put behind you. Going forward be very clear with your leaders what they are doing right and even more vocal of what they are doing wrong! They do indeed have a difficult job to do, I won't argue that at all. I just want them to remember they work for you and need to start acting like it.

 

[SparrowHawk]

While I've no dog in this fight either I will say this.

In general terms the US F/A's are in the best negotiating position they have been in since I started flying in 2000. However there are some risks with pushing the issue.

I think getting rid of the mediator would send a strong signal to management that the bullying and intimidation are over and it's well past time to talk in earnest and not present bull spit contracts that merely rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic.

If you are ready as a group to put it all on the line and take the company down as an end result then I say go for it.

The beauty of a free society is that you can act in your own best interests. Figure out what that is and go for it. HARD as if your career depends on it, because it probably does.

Mayne a little more CHAOS then normal at US is just what the doctor ordered.?????

 

[ggiby]

CLT, WOW good for them!

Good for you mute guy... did you just get a 5k deduction in your paycheck... I just got one because the people in CLT... they so so uneducated...

 

[ggiby]

Ps... you pilots... would not ever stand for that as cheap as you are... look at where you are... not ever going to get a contract... just like us now... are you sleeping with a fa? maybe... you are all crazy and you cost me a lot of money today... sleep tight... live on

 

[freedom]

I'm hearing reports from the Phoenix crew room of flight attendants in tears. People are devastated there. I'm seeing posts on facebook saying "Some people just don't understand how badly so many of us need this" and another saying "To the 51% of you I say go to hell. We have f/a's barely making it that this would have been life changing for". Too many to share them all.

I don't feel pride, I feel sorry for them. It's a sad day for many of these flight attendants, who had such hope that their lives would change for the better with this TA.

i want you to know that my heart goes out to all of the FA's in tears ......i know what a life changing event a new TA can be ...i'm a baggage handler here in PHX and it seems like only yesterday that we had the "vote " ...

As a former America West employee our wages were HORRIBLE ... i mean just horrible ....we looked with envy at what the east guys were making and that was our SOLE objective , to make a living wage ...The East people however had a different midset ... they thought THEIR wages were horrible , and because many of them had been there for 20 + years , they still bore resentment from their last BK contract , and rememebered everything that they had lost over the years ....our discussions on here were as divided as NIGHT/DAY .... name calling , lies , you name it ....meanwhile we PHX people were out there picketing ,"working safe" , there were even people stuffing informative fliers about our horrible conditions and low wages in passangers baggage ( made the news ) ....

We were united as a work force , well an America West work force ...and the east , they were fractured , they had thrown their field stations under the bus in order to save themselves more concessions ... but PHL and CLT vastly outnumbered us ....

When we took the first TA vote it failed , and we were utterly devistated ....despair , tears ,sorrow ...but we commited to fighting twice as hard for the next round ...meanwhile the economy grew far worse , and that helped to open some eyes on the East metal , but still not enough to easily win a second match ...

For the second TA vote , i think that many on the east coast simply assumed that because they handily won the first round , they would win the second round and so not as many workers went to vote ( back then , there was no over the phone voting , you had to vote in person ) ... I should mention that the East workers wanted more pay , and they also wanted magic money paychecks via some amazing change of control greivence that would give every east worker 20 K ....(nothing ever came of the change of control )

The only reason we won the second TA is because of one man ... Ron Roth ....Here in PHX we had over a 1000 workers , but our work force back then was nothing short of apathetic , most wanted the new contract , but most were also too lazy to find where the union hall was and drive down to it ( just outside of the airport ) .... Ron understood the workers and how far they would be willing to go ... so he arranged to have the vote held here IN the airport ...because of that we had almost complete turn out for the vote .. i think it was close to 900 people who voted , we only had 7 no votes ...That combined with almost unamious support from the field stations who feared outsourcing and the 60 day rule(a tool too send long term agents to the bottom of the payscale making them start ALL OVER again ) , these factors along with apathy from the East metal workers to having to come out and vote again allowed us to win ...

but it was close ....... and while many of us gained increased wages , we gave up ALOT of stations to outsourcing ... To this day we still suffer the ramifications of the outsourcing terms .. it seems there isn't a month that doesn't go by in PHX that brings in new refugee's .... our senority no longer goes up , but actually BACKWARDS as more and more senior people come in from the outsourced field stations ..we also gave up profit sharing ...

For people like myself the contract was a boon .... but for many others it's been a negative life chaging event ... there are now SO many people who have to communte from their homes across the country to PHX , it's really sad ...When they closed down TUS , ton's of people came up here , and many of them still have familes and homes that they must drive two hours to.... The ones that have lives down there live in rented homes in large groups , they work double shift after double shift so that they can go back and be part of their familes ... same goes for the LAS workers ..

I think getting a new contract was necessary considering the state of the economy , and from what i've read in this thread about the company not offering more than they already have , that's an accurate statment ... on our second TA they didn't offer anything more that i'm aware of , but merly moved things around a bit ...

The companies hand is simply SUPER SUPER strong ...(because of how horrible the job market is right now ) ...

i doubt you'll get enough time for another TA before the American Merger is annouced which will put the brakes on everything ... at that point your going to be three groups having to decide on new terms , and that's going to make things even harder and more complicated ...

your 98 votes is very similar to our second TA vote , and those of us who are former America West workers could have very well ended up where you are today had Ron Roth not done what he did ...(bless him ) ...

i can only tell you what i have learned when it comes to TA agreements , but i tend to think that if one knows a merger is upcoming the best thing you can do is too take what's on the table and then ready yourselves for the next round .. that's what i think we will do ... the "time value of money " is a concept that i am now very familar with as i think back to the two years of my working career where i could have made almost 5 dollars an hour more had we accepted the first contract ... When we merge with American , we will be a united ramp that is now experinced in mergers .... if the company offers us fair job protections and decent wages , we will move quickly to accept a new contract rather than drag things out thinking of how things "used to be "

I don't know what you all are going to do now ... i feel very sorry for you that you couldn't come to a new agreement ...

 

[ChockJockey]

i want you to know that my heart goes out to all of the FA's in tears ......i know what a life changing event a new TA can be ...i'm a baggage handler here in PHX and it seems like only yesterday that we had the "vote " ...

As a former America West employee our wages were HORRIBLE ... i mean just horrible ....we looked with envy at what the east guys were making and that was our SOLE objective , to make a living wage ...The East people however had a different midset ... they thought THEIR wages were horrible , and because many of them had been there for 20 + years , they still bore resentment from their last BK contract , and rememebered everything that they had lost over the years ....our discussions on here were as divided as NIGHT/DAY .... name calling , lies , you name it ....meanwhile we PHX people were out there picketing ,"working safe" , there were even people stuffing informative fliers about our horrible conditions and low wages in passangers baggage ( made the news ) ....

We were united as a work force , well an America West work force ...and the east , they were fractured , they had thrown their field stations under the bus in order to save themselves more concessions ... but PHL and CLT vastly outnumbered us ....

When we took the first TA vote it failed , and we were utterly devistated ....despair , tears ,sorrow ...but we commited to fighting twice as hard for the next round ...meanwhile the economy grew far worse , and that helped to open some eyes on the East metal , but still not enough to easily win a second match ...

For the second TA vote , i think that many on the east coast simply assumed that because they handily won the first round , they would win the second round and so not as many workers went to vote ( back then , there was no over the phone voting , you had to vote in person ) ... I should mention that the East workers wanted more pay , and they also wanted magic money paychecks via some amazing change of control greivence that would give every east worker 20 K ....(nothing ever came of the change of control )

The only reason we won the second TA is because of one man ... Ron Roth ....Here in PHX we had over a 1000 workers , but our work force back then was nothing short of apathetic , most wanted the new contract , but most were also too lazy to find where the union hall was and drive down to it ( just outside of the airport ) .... Ron understood the workers and how far they would be willing to go ... so he arranged to have the vote held here IN the airport ...because of that we had almost complete turn out for the vote .. i think it was close to 900 people who voted , we only had 7 no votes ...That combined with almost unamious support from the field stations who feared outsourcing and the 60 day rule(a tool too send long term agents to the bottom of the payscale making them start ALL OVER again ) , these factors along with apathy from the East metal workers to having to come out and vote again allowed us to win ...

but it was close ....... and while many of us gained increased wages , we gave up ALOT of stations to outsourcing ... To this day we still suffer the ramifications of the outsourcing terms .. it seems there isn't a month that doesn't go by in PHX that brings in new refugee's .... our senority no longer goes up , but actually BACKWARDS as more and more senior people come in from the outsourced field stations ..we also gave up profit sharing ...

For people like myself the contract was a boon .... but for many others it's been a negative life chaging event ... there are now SO many people who have to communte from their homes across the country to PHX , it's really sad ...When they closed down TUS , ton's of people came up here , and many of them still have familes and homes that they must drive two hours to.... The ones that have lives down there live in rented homes in large groups , they work double shift after double shift so that they can go back and be part of their familes ... same goes for the LAS workers ..

I think getting a new contract was necessary considering the state of the economy , and from what i've read in this thread about the company not offering more than they already have , that's an accurate statment ... on our second TA they didn't offer anything more that i'm aware of , but merly moved things around a bit ...

The companies hand is simply SUPER SUPER strong ...(because of how horrible the job market is right now ) ...

i doubt you'll get enough time for another TA before the American Merger is annouced which will put the brakes on everything ... at that point your going to be three groups having to decide on new terms , and that's going to make things even harder and more complicated ...

your 98 votes is very similar to our second TA vote , and those of us who are former America West workers could have very well ended up where you are today had Ron Roth not done what he did ...(bless him ) ...

i can only tell you what i have learned when it comes to TA agreements , but i tend to think that if one knows a merger is upcoming the best thing you can do is too take what's on the table and then ready yourselves for the next round .. that's what i think we will do ... the "time value of money " is a concept that i am now very familar with as i think back to the two years of my working career where i could have made almost 5 dollars an hour more had we accepted the first contract ... When we merge with American , we will be a united ramp that is now experinced in mergers .... if the company offers us fair job protections and decent wages , we will move quickly to accept a new contract rather than drag things out thinking of how things "used to be "

I don't know what you all are going to do now ... i feel very sorry for you that you couldn't come to a new agreement ...

...
...
...

 

[freedom]

...
...
...

look , i didn't write what i did to be mean ... i just thought it worth mentioning the different outcomes that have occured because of the East ,West merger ...

i don't suppose the Flight attendant situation to be close to what ours was ... it's a different work group , with different rules , and even looking at the voting results you can see that they aren't grouped into regions like we were ... i don't claim to understand the complexity of their TA ...

but i do know that they work VERY hard .....When i first started i thought wow , what a glamours life , always flying about , staying in hotels ( to this day i still don't quite understand their pay , if they make alot of money each year or not ) ....but as time has gone on , i've begun to see that what i thought was a fun jet setting life sytle has to be a soul stealing grind ... drive to work , fly to wherever , deal with assholes on the plane , return ....

and from everything i've read over the years i know the Reserve F/A's have the worst of it ...

i don't entirely know why i brought up our own TA history ... but it did happen , and it is worth remembering ...Some would say it was a boon that we passed it , and others would say it was not a good thing ...

 

[luvn737s]

Despite the Bulls thirst for drama, there is no credible strike threat. All perties know it. Parker has judges on speed dial to get an injunction at the slightest whiff of a job action (besides which no one wants to take a concession to buy a few hundred jobs back).

So how do you get the best possible TA3 in front of the FA's in the shortest possible time?

 

[flybynite]

SMDH!

 

[USA320Pilot]

US Airways flight attendants say no to contract deal

AFA leaders had said ratifying a joint contract would put them in a stronger position to bargain for better wages and work rules if a merger with American were to occur.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/09/28/3561368/us-airways-flight-attendants-say.html