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George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin

That is the rub in my opinion. If you read the SYG law in Florida is just says that you must have a resonable belief that their life in in danger. Yes they must provide some sort of substantiation but only what is reasonable to a jury. According to the law I only need to reasonably believe it could escalate (up untill I am dead, it will always only be a belief not a reality), whether I am right or not does not seem to be addressed in the law.

So my wife is walking the dog in the neighborhood at night. She is accosted by someone. She starts going into her bag to pull a gun out because she is in fear for her life (who knows what the person wants or will do). Now the person see's her reaching for a gun and he stabs her to death with a knife because he knew if my wife got the gun out that they would be dead. Can he claim self defense?
 
Ms Tree said:
That is the rub in my opinion. If you read the SYG law in Florida is just says that you must have a resonable belief that their life in in danger. Yes they must provide some sort of substantiation but only what is reasonable to a jury. According to the law I only need to reasonably believe it could escalate (up untill I am dead, it will always only be a belief not a reality), whether I am right or not does not seem to be addressed in the law.

So my wife is walking the dog in the neighborhood at night. She is accosted by someone. She starts going into her bag to pull a gun out because she is in fear for her life (who knows what the person wants or will do). Now the person see's her reaching for a gun and he stabs her to death with a knife because he knew if my wife got the gun out that they would be dead. Can he claim self defense?
Click to expand...
No, If she was accosted, she has a right to defend herself! Did you come from the same Litter as Dog?
 
Ms Tree said:
Yes I do realize the ballance of power shifts, I thought that was clear in my example. You swing first I am going to feel threatned and try to take you out where you will feel threatned... and it goes back and forth till one dies and theother claims self defense.

What I am saying is that if you start a fight, while you may claim that you feared for your life I do not believe that you should be able to claim self defense after you kill me when you are the the one who started a fight. I do not know if the law would support such a claim as it would pertain to any survior of nearly any confrontation.

If I start a fight what I expect is irrelavant. If you think my swing could escalte into your death then you have the right to kill me (if I understand your argument correctly) and when I realize that my action scared the crap out of you to the point where you feel you need to kill me I become scared to the point where I feel I must kill you before you kill me. None of that makes a ny sense to me. I do not beleive the insigator gets to claim self defense. I would like to see case law that supports that POV.
Click to expand...
You really don't know anything about the laws of self defense do you?
 
Ms Tree said:
So my wife is walking the dog in the neighborhood at night. She is accosted by someone. She starts going into her bag to pull a gun out because she is in fear for her life (who knows what the person wants or will do). Now the person see's her reaching for a gun and he stabs her to death with a knife because he knew if my wife got the gun out that they would be dead. Can he claim self defense?
Click to expand...
If by "accosted" you mean that she was approached with hostility and harmful intent, then the accost-er has already disqualified him/herself from the self defense claim (under Florida 776.041 but common in most states). Where it is reasonable that your wife would feel imminent bodily harm and death (after all he had a knife) it is also reasonable that your wife was matching force with equal and reasonable force. Accost-er could not legally use the self defense claim.
 
Ms Tree said:
Yes I do realize the ballance of power shifts, I thought that was clear in my example. You swing first I am going to feel threatned and try to take you out where you will feel threatned... and it goes back and forth till one dies and theother claims self defense.

What I am saying is that if you start a fight, while you may claim that you feared for your life I do not believe that you should be able to claim self defense after you kill me when you are the the one who started a fight. I do not know if the law would support such a claim as it would pertain to any survior of nearly any confrontation.

If I start a fight what I expect is irrelavant. If you think my swing could escalte into your death then you have the right to kill me (if I understand your argument correctly) and when I realize that my action scared the crap out of you to the point where you feel you need to kill me I become scared to the point where I feel I must kill you before you kill me. None of that makes a ny sense to me. I do not beleive the insigator gets to claim self defense. I would like to see case law that supports that POV.
Click to expand...
If I come up to you, face to face and push you, are you allowed to uses lethal force to counter my push? Does my push represent a reasonable and imminent fear of bodily harm and death? Do you respond with equal force or excessive force? If you use excessive force (punch me in the face) are you or aren't you now the aggressor?
 
muff daddy said:
Thinking it could escalate and having it escalate are two entirely different things.
It would also depend of physical evidence on both people.
The survivor would have the burden of proof that he was in fear for his life no matter who instigated the action.
Click to expand...
If the survivor claims self defense then it is the State's responsibility to prove it wasn't (except Ohio).
 
Knotbuyinit said:
If by "accosted" you mean that she was approached with hostility and harmful intent, then the accost-er has already disqualified him/herself from the self defense claim (under Florida 776.041 but common in most states). Where it is reasonable that your wife would feel imminent bodily harm and death (after all he had a knife) it is also reasonable that your wife was matching force with equal and reasonable force. Accost-er could not legally use the self defense claim.
Click to expand...

That was my argument with Muff. Reading his claim, either person involved in the altercation has the right to defend them self. See post #845 and subsequent posts.
 
Knotbuyinit said:
If I come up to you, face to face and push you, are you allowed to uses lethal force to counter my push? Does my push represent a reasonable and imminent fear of bodily harm and death? Do you respond with equal force or excessive force? If you use excessive force (punch me in the face) are you or aren't you now the aggressor?
Click to expand...

Guess it all depends on the situation. If you push me and tell me to come quietly or you'll kill me then yes, if it's just a push and we are in a public place with lots of people, probably not.
 
Dog Wonder said:
Zimmerman had a chance to plead innocent and get a trial. Martin did not. Zimmerman is guilty of being a pussy with a gun.
Click to expand...

Dog, the trial is done, Zimmerman was found not guilty. The whining is getting old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWUBmO1hVhk
 
You are permitted to meet certain levels of force with equal levels of force.
Two people dancing equally and one ratchets it up now we got a new ball game.
 
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