Analysts again say that AA should shrink to help the industry (the competition)

[WorldTraveler]

and I absolutely agree that the free market is distorted because of the dysfunctional RLA which has absolutely strapped BOTH sides with restrictions that prevent the free market from working the way you want.

but, no one in the airline industry is forced to work there. as dysfunctional as labor relations in the airline industry are, the RLA existed by the time every person who participates in this forum was hired. There are not even that many people left in the industry who were hired before deregulation. Maybe a lot of people didn't realize what it went to move from a regulated to a deregulated environment but that is exactly what happened.

and labor could STILL exert its muscle in the airline industry - Bob has proposed it. But over and over again we hear that labor has sold out to the company and the interests of a few at the expense of the majority. It is hard to blame the government when labor doesn't even do what it is supposed to do for its own people.

and finally, BK is not exclusive to the airline industry and it was used after more than 20 years of losses during deregulation and the greatest economic disaster that has hit not only the airline industry but also the rest of American business.

I'm not defending what exists; I am saying that it is what it is and that is not necessarily fair. If labor is going to succeed, they have to figure out how to work within the systems that exist.

 

[Bob Owens]

I am saying that it is what it is and that is not necessarily fair. If labor is going to succeed, they have to figure out how to work within the systems that exist.

Unions have to create enough chaos to get them to make the system fair. They can do it, but they have to do it together. Thats the only way things get corrected. The fact is you can not work within an unfair system, thats what makes it unfair, you have to change it. 
 
If Rosa Parks had waited for Legislation or tried to work "within the system" her Grand Daughters would still be at the back of the bus. Instead people took advantage of the Global situation and the world reach of Television and disobeyed and brought global attention to unfair laws in the United States-the number one salesman for Capitalism. Not only did regular white people in America take notice but so did all the non-white people in third world countries that the US was trying to convince that "Our way" was better than the "Commies way". Preaching Capitalism wrapped up as synonymous with Freedom and Democracy didnt sell when black women and children were being beaten, fire hosed, attacked by police dogs and even murdered because they were trying to register to vote and take part in the freedom and Democracy enjoyed by their white neighbors.  
 

"If it may be said of the slavery era that the white man took the world and gave the Negro Jesus, then it may be said of the Reconstruction era that the southern aristocracy took the world and gave the poor white man Jim Crow. He gave him Jim Crow. And when his wrinkled stomach cried out for the food that his empty pockets could not provide, he ate Jim Crow, a psychological bird that told him that no matter how bad off he was, at least he was a white man, better than the black man. And he ate Jim Crow. And when his undernourished children cried out for the necessities that his low wages could not provide, he showed them the Jim Crow signs on the buses and in the stores, on the streets and in the public buildings. And his children, too, learned to feed upon Jim Crow, their last outpost of psychological oblivion."
MLK

And today the working poor, black and white, eat pie in the sky as the boss who's making more than ever tells them to blame the Latino and the Asian across the sea for the low wages they impose here in America. Black and whites are now being told, as they eat pie in the sky that at least he is an American, better than the Hispanic or the Asian. Our country after all, has been blessed by God himself!! Now have another helping of that Pie in the sky!! 
 
When we look back at conditions in the South, we had White Racists who spoke much like you do. Some blacks were permitted to register, this way the racists could truthfully claim that blacks were allowed to vote, but they had to pass tests, pay poll taxes etc and if they didn't like the system they had down there nobody was forcing them to stay, they could leave. As the racists attacked peaceful demonstrators they technically were correct when they justified their brutality by claiming they were just maintaing law and order, enforcing compliance with unfair laws. "Maybe its not fair but they have to work within (the rigged) system" that ensures it will never be fair, even though the racists claim it is. Sound at all familiar? They too would give flippant responses much like you, about how nobody is forcing them to stay. Your "bias" is just as bad as the racists, you just transferred that same evilness against the working class, black or white, skin color doesn't doesn't matter to you because you only care about what keeps the most green in your pocket. 
 
You claim the RLA restricts both sides, Ive cited several times how we are restricted, come and tell us how restrictions in the RLA have harmed the carriers. You also claim that Bankruptcy isnt exclusive to the airline industry but what is exclusive to only airline labor in bankruptcy is the ability of the courts to allow the airlines to impose new terms on airline workers and deny the collective rejection of those terms. Every collective organization EXCEPT labor retains the right to reject. THAT IS EXCLUSIVE TO THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY!!!!  
Your answer to that is that nobody is forcing us as individuals to stay, and 50 years you or your poppa would have been saying "If those niggers want to vote nobody is forcing them to stay, they can move up North". Same mentality, same motive, just different protaginists. 
 
You most certainly are defending what exists. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bob,
I am not saying that unions shouldn't fight back. I have and continue to agree with you that the only way airline labor will change things is by collectively challenging the system. If you and others feel you can win by joining hands with other unions and employees at other airlines, then do so.

But let me remind you that AMFA seriously miscalculated their ability to force hire wages out of NW and the union and NW lost thousands of jobs that were never replaced.

The problem with union demands is that the market is not closed. It IS free market even if not entirely fair and that means that companies do have the ability to seek labor solutions elsewhere.

and again if airlines were so hugely profitable, then people would be busting the doors down to a piece of one. But when airlines lost tens of billions of dollars over decades and it is still far from clear how long the current very heady profits can be maintained, no one is willing to argue that airlines are home free for good.

and you still seem to forget that much of airline labor is paid well above average compared to similar employees in other industries and airline employees are seeing far larger increases in compensation than in other industries as well.

and then ONLY time that airlines can impose conditions on labor is essentially in BK.

The US airline is not in it and won't be for years to come.

Move from the past and recognize that your ability to effect change is by starting from TODAY and quit whining about what happened in the past. Fair or not, the clock will not be turned back.

If labor is going to regain control in the airline industry, IT has to figure out to work within the reality that exists.

TODAY.

that doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead.

It does mean figuring out how to effect change from today forward based on the reality of the industry, not whining about what is unjust or wrong - unless you can change that - and without constantly whining about what happened in the past - which can never be rewritten for either side.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
I am not saying that unions shouldn't fight back. I have and continue to agree with you that the only way airline labor will change things is by collectively challenging the system. If you and others feel you can win by joining hands with other unions and employees at other airlines, then do so.

But let me remind you that AMFA seriously miscalculated their ability to force hire wages out of NW and the union and NW lost thousands of jobs that were never replaced.

The problem with union demands is that the market is not closed. It IS free market even if not entirely fair and that means that companies do have the ability to seek labor solutions elsewhere.

and again if airlines were so hugely profitable, then people would be busting the doors down to a piece of one. But when airlines lost tens of billions of dollars over decades and it is still far from clear how long the current very heady profits can be maintained, no one is willing to argue that airlines are home free for good.

and you still seem to forget that much of airline labor is paid well above average compared to similar employees in other industries and airline employees are seeing far larger increases in compensation than in other industries as well.

and then ONLY time that airlines can impose conditions on labor is essentially in BK.

The US airline is not in it and won't be for years to come.

Move from the past and recognize that your ability to effect change is by starting from TODAY and quit whining about what happened in the past. Fair or not, the clock will not be turned back.

If labor is going to regain control in the airline industry, IT has to figure out to work within the reality that exists.

TODAY.

that doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead.

It does mean figuring out how to effect change from today forward based on the reality of the industry, not whining about what is unjust or wrong - unless you can change that - and without constantly whining about what happened in the past - which can never be rewritten for either side.

BS, dont try and back peddle on what you said, you said that nobody is forcing us to stay, that our rates are where the market puts them, that its our fault for staying and that is the system, fair or not, and we have to work within it. You have repeatedly expressed this sentiment over and over again so don't come here and try and spin it like you haven't.
 
Its not free market when Collective Capital has the government hogtie Collective Labor. If Capital can act collectively to influence "market rates" then why shouldn't labor be allowed to do the same? 
 
And the only way Labor can change that is by creating enough disruption to the economy that other Capitalists pressure both the Government and the carriers to make it go away before the discontent spreads, much the same way the Federal Government made the Southern States meet the demands of blacks by passing Federal laws forcing them to do so. 
 
As you say Airlines lost billions for decades and the money still kept coming in and the industry continued to grow. Airlines are cash cows, make them borrow $800 million they cant use, collect a few million in fees and a few million more in interest and tie up a Billion in cash. Sell a $10 toilet seat for $1000. Charged them $4000 to land on your airport, even if its empty and charge another fee for each passenger when its not. Let them write off a Billion dollars in "Goodwill" and sure they show losses but like I said billions still come on in. The trick is to stash it all away before the workers get a good look at it and want their fair share, better yet blame all the losses on Labor by claiming that all the other costs, including the $1000 toilet seat, the $4000 landing fee and even the $800 million dollar loan that they cant use are all "fixed costs" and the only way to become profitable is for labor to work for less. 
 
I can tell you exactly how long this profitable stretch is going to last, it will last until the labor contracts become amendable and labor gets the power back to strike for their fair share. By then the Airlines will be borrowing and paying fees and interest on Billions they cant use, paying $2000 for that $10 toilet seat, $10,000 to land and writing off $10 billion in Goodwill Losses. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I haven't backpedalled on anything, Bob.

I have repeatedly said and you don't seem to want to agree that the market is free ON BOTH ENDS.

if you don't like it, you and as many people you can find are free to withhold your services. You as a person have the right to do that.

Unions have limitations and the union could get whacked by the courts if it doesn't follow those government-blessed procedures but if enough of you decide you aren't playing by the messed up rules anymore, you can do whatever you want.

and then you can find out how well you are really able to control the market or if you are indeed swept up by a free enterprise system that always finds a new company and a new worker to enter the market.

Labor would have more success in the airline industry if airlines like NW had not succeeded at staring down their mechanics and winning, EA hadn't just shut their doors, and on and on.

You are free to exercise your right to practice in the free enterprise system.

You just have to be willing to live with the consequences.

There are very few employees in the airline industry that are willing to be Rosa Parks in the airline labor movement.

 

[Bob Owens]

I haven't backpedalled on anything, Bob.

I have repeatedly said and you don't seem to want to agree that the market is free ON BOTH ENDS.

if you don't like it, you and as many people you can find are free to withhold your services. You as a person have the right to do that.

Unions have limitations and the union could get whacked by the courts if it doesn't follow those government-blessed procedures but if enough of you decide you aren't playing by the messed up rules anymore, you can do whatever you want.

and then you can find out how well you are really able to control the market or if you are indeed swept up by a free enterprise system that always finds a new company and a new worker to enter the market.

Labor would have more success in the airline industry if airlines like NW had not succeeded at staring down their mechanics and winning, EA hadn't just shut their doors, and on and on.

You are free to exercise your right to practice in the free enterprise system.

You just have to be willing to live with the consequences.

There are very few employees in the airline industry that are willing to be Rosa Parks in the airline labor movement.

Its not "free" when the buyers are a select few collectives holding all the jobs and the sellers of labor are restricted from capitalzing on the benefits of forming their own collective to negotiate the best deal for the sellers.  Effectively every shareholder is a buyer, but they buy collectively as a Corporation, Unions are collectives of Labor that workers form to level the field. You cant stomach the fact that the "lessers" of society get to negotiate on a level playing field by forming Unions.  
 
Yes individual workers can leave (just like blacks could move up North) if they don't like the restrictions but similar restrictions would never be placed upon the Capital side. Owners of Capital form Corporations, owners of labor form Unions in response.  Saying "If you dont like it you are free to leave " is no different than saying you are free to sell your stock, justifying placing unfair restrictions with the rationale that since you retain the right to act as an individual that its fair is an arrogant lie. Its an unequal, unfair application of government power and the fact that we can individually leave was the same argument used to Justify Jim Crow, the blacks can leave, so its fair.  Again, blacks were free to try and register to vote, they just had to live with the consequences. "Consequences" are proof that its not free and its not freedom. Freedom is the right to engage without consequences. 
 
You just cant shake that racist mindset can you? 
 
Rosa Parks are few and far between, but she was not the first, just the most famous. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

spare the race card, BOB.

it doesn't even come close to fitting and it hasn't even been suggested. You are the one that is seeing racism as a part of the issue; I am speaking SOLELY about economics and market forces.

I am not at all saying that you or anyone else should just throw up your hands in desperation and leave because you can't get what you want.

In fact, I have repeatedly said that you and others have to band together and really withhold your services to effect change.

It is you that are content to maintain the status quo and live within an unjust system by not acting OUTSIDE OF THE SYSTEM.

by telling us how unfair the system is because it is stacked against labor BUT NOT TELLING US WHAT YOU ARE DOING ABOUT IT, mgmt. has won.

if you really believe that labor has a leg to stand on, then take a stand.

but you also run the risk that the free market system will indeed work - just like what happened with Reagan and the ATC controllers.

you might win - but the system might hit a long-term reset that will leave labor far worse off than you are before.

but if you act, then you have pressed the free market system to act as it is intended and without government of unfair advantage on either side.

and everything you do in life has consequences and implications, both positive and negative.

 

[Bob Owens]

spare the race card, BOB.

it doesn't even come close to fitting and it hasn't even been suggested. You are the one that is seeing racism as a part of the issue; I am speaking SOLELY about economics and market forces.

I am not at all saying that you or anyone else should just throw up your hands in desperation and leave because you can't get what you want.

In fact, I have repeatedly said that you and others have to band together and really withhold your services to effect change.

It is you that are content to maintain the status quo and live within an unjust system by not acting OUTSIDE OF THE SYSTEM.

by telling us how unfair the system is because it is stacked against labor BUT NOT TELLING US WHAT YOU ARE DOING ABOUT IT, mgmt. has won.

if you really believe that labor has a leg to stand on, then take a stand.

but you also run the risk that the free market system will indeed work - just like what happened with Reagan and the ATC controllers.

you might win - but the system might hit a long-term reset that will leave labor far worse off than you are before.

but if you act, then you have pressed the free market system to act as it is intended and without government of unfair advantage on either side.

I'm equating the fact that your class bias stems from the same vein as racism. You use the same base arguments in an attempt to rationalize and justify inequitable treatment of a segment of the population. a) They are free to leave, b ) they have to abide by the rules even if they are unfair, but thats ok because of "a)". 
 
Once again, your class bias shows. Reagan used the power of the government, not the power of "the market". He used the Military to fill in those jobs till they hired replacements, effectively he used the US Government Military against the workers, no different than if they used the military to operate airplanes if the pilots went on strike at an airline in order to break a pilots strike in favor of a carrier. One employer held all the jobs, one Union held all the workers,  and the full power and resources of the Federal government , which should be neutral were used to retaliate against the workers protest against the employers refusal to negotiate. The only difference between Reagan and Wallace was no baton charge, no dogs and no fire hoses and the fact that PATCO failed to get their message to and gain the sympathy of the public and even more unfortunately, other Unions.  
 
By MLKs third attempt to march across the bridge out of Selma, he was joined by religious leaders from many other faiths and denominations. The struggle for Racial Equality was an economic struggle. MLK recognized that and also recognized that the Labor Movement was the same as the Civil rights movement. He was killed when he went to show support for striking Union Garbage collectors. 
 
Civil Rights is not just about race. 
 
 

1. 
   Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from infringement by governments, social organizations and private individuals, and which ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the society and state without discrimination or repression.
   

Can you really claim that the application of C-11 and the RLA as they are applied to Airline workers isnt a Civil Rights violation? 

 

[700UW]

Bob,
 
Your wasting your time.
 
He is anti-union and anti-worker, he makes up figures and spins more than you, lol!
 
He is cut from the Ron Allen cloth of Delta, go check out the two IAM threads on the DL board and you will see what I am talking about.
 
He thinks workers should be happy with the scraps the company offers.

 

[Kev3188]

"Know your place."

Still no such thing as a free market.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I am neither anti-worker or have ever told anyone to know their place.

I have repeatedly said that I want labor to win... but complaining about a system but not being able to figure out how to either fix that system OR, which is probably more likely, win working within that system won't help labor at all.

When labor says that they can't win because of a stacked deck, then you have already admitted that mgmt. has won.

Don't live with such a defeatist mindset.

figure out how to win.

the ATC issue is at the extreme. ATC is managed by the gov't. Airlines are not. The military is not going to step in to fix or fly or dispatch commercial airliners.

the ATC issue is in the past; that is why the FAA is now facing a shortage of controllers as those replacements retire and the government once again is interfering in the free market to impose social reengineering instead of allow the free market - allowing the best and brightest - to win.

You are the one who brought up Rosa Parks and her actions - of which she was just one person - resulted in radical actions that were within the system she lived - busses and a segregated world.

I have yet to see anyone in labor willing to take anywhere close to those kinds of steps to change the trajectory of the airline labor movement but I will be the FIRST to applaud someone who becomes the Rosa Parks for airline labor - and has tens of thousands of people to stand with him/her.

There are some very gifted and intelligent people who participate on this board;; the problem is not a lack of intelligence or skill.

The problem is that you and those who want to effect change have to stand together first and foremost. over half of the labor discussions on this board are about how this union sold out to mgmt. on this or that issue and involves infighting and competition between unions. When that is the reality that mgmt. sees they are going to play the labor movement against itself.

and secondly, you have to be absolutely certain that you in your cause really can affect change in the marketplace of labor. With pilot and looming mechanic shortages and high profits for airlines due to low fuel if nothing else (and there are other reasons), there is no better time to act.

I want you to win; why would I not want to see more wealth? but I can't make change happen for you.

do it and know that I will applaud you and Kev and 700 when you succeed.

but you have to succeed in order to get the applause.

here is an article about wealth and income disparity that you might find interesting.

Marketwatch, IIRC, is owned by the Wall Street Journal, the world's most read business newspaper.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/capitalism-is-killing-americas-morals-our-future-2015-05-22?link=mw_home_kiosk

"Sandel’s core message is simple: “The good things in life are degraded if turned into commodities. So to decide where the market belongs, and where it should be kept at a distance, we have to decide how to value the goods in question — health, education, family life, nature, art, civic duties, and so on. These are moral and political questions, not merely economic ones.”

"This much is guaranteed: Capitalism is eliminating moral values. As Sandel puts it: “Each party to a deal decides for him- or herself what value to place on the things being exchanged. This nonjudgmental stance toward values lies at the heart of market reasoning, and explains much of its appeal.” But unfortunately, market capitalism has also “exacted a heavy price ... drained public discourse of moral and civic energy.”

You, Kev, and 700 might be surprised that I am far more aligned with the goals you have for society and labor but I see different mechanisms about how to get there

 

[700UW]

Let me PM topdawg and he will tell the board different as will Kevin.

 

[WorldTraveler]

How about you just accept that I would be happy to give labor the nod if it achieved what it said it is supposed to do?

I have consistently said that I am pro-worker and pro-growth but when labor really can't show that it has done a better job of getting what it says it is supposed to do than non-union companies, it is very hard for me not to ask the tough questions about where the proof is that the union has succeeded at its goals.

I am not anti-union or anything else except talk without performance.

 

[WeAAsles]

This is an interesting conversation and I can understand what WT is trying to say. Labor in the Airline industry has never flexed it's muscle to demand what it feels it should be paid whether that's a fair wage or not. Looking at AMFA at NWA was an example where at least one group had said they had enough and decided to make a go of it. But when they walked no one followed and they were crucified for standing alone. The laws are against us seems to be where you're going with this Bob, but the laws are written against us. So why is labor as an entity listening to those laws? What are the ramifications if the "ENTIRE" industry were to disobey and follow into the possible jaws of death or glory? One group standing up for the cause without the backing of all will never succeed. A collective showing of disobedience like we see in Europe and Asia is the only way to succeed in the long run. 

Now here though lies the obvious problem. If something like that were to ever occur would we be able to gain public support for the cause? Would the public agree that yes the Airline worker is suffering? Your Non Union, low wage subcontractor making minimum wage would have some support (Maybe) but let's take us who are not them. (The reality of the matter and situation shouldn't be ignored or hidden from view) Bob out of the Top 4 paying carriers in the US you are the lowest paid. But that lowest paid is a BASE of $75,000 plus benefits. You can look at what the average wage in the US currently is and you make 50% more than that. Would Joe public be on your side if you told them your story? Or would it actually matter anyway what they think if you are the only game in town and the Government doesn't have the ability to replace the entire system? (PATCO) You live in NYC and 75k in NYC sux frankly. Goods and services there are murdering you. But the rest of the country lives pretty well on 75k. So would the workforce in the rest of the country really go radical anarchist to support getting you more? It's a question you really need to think about. Members in DFW, CLT, PHX, and TUL I don't believe would follow into the breach and risk losing that security they have. IMO. (12 years in DFW gives you an insight into those minds)

Now let's touch on another problem. What ramifications would or could occur for defying the system and are the members willing to go the whole way? The 3 day strike in NYC by Local 100 tells a tale. Why the hell didn't those members take it all the way? Who cares what forces they were us against. They held all the cards to keep that city shut down until there demands were met. Essentially they held the power to continue to hold the greatest city in the world hostage. The economic heart of the world, and they folded. Then the system comes back and fines the crap out of that Local and put's there leader in jail. Where was the outrage by the members to stand up for there Union? Why didn't they say "You F with our Union and we'll cripple this City" They were no where to be seen. Because for all their bluster the reality is and we have the same problem here at the airline, the members just are not suffering like you think they are. If they were I doubt there would be any force that could stop them or us. (You really need to get out of NYC and get the pulse of the rest of the Country)

On April 10, Justice Jones ordered Roger Toussaint, Local 100's president, to jail for 10 days for contempt of court, a charge that stemmed from Mr. Toussaint's failure to order his members back to work under provisions of the state's Taylor Law, which prohibits strikes by public employees.
 
The rulings by Justice Jones on the $2.5 million fine and the dues checkoff came after days of court argument over detailed financial records, in which union lawyers argued that financial penalties would cripple Local 100. In his comments from the bench, Justice Jones joked more than once that the cascade of financial records and conflicting balance sheet interpretations made the labor dispute seem like the case against the Enron Corporation.
 
In one concession to the union, Justice Jones set the fine at $2.5 million instead of $3 million, as had been expected. Although the 60-hour December walkout was widely considered to be a three-day strike, he said it was actually called off midway through the third day, Dec. 22.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/18/nyregion/18union.html?_r=0

I'm willing to take it to Hell and fight the Demons with you Bob, but you better make sure we have our army of Angels backing us all the way or the Devil is going to take our souls. NYC members are not a large enough army.

 

 

[Kev3188]

Labor won't get anywhere as long as it obeys the rules it never agreed to.

Operating within the existing structure and expecting success is pointless.