Get rid of Pensions? OP-ED

[Hopeful]

Interesting opinion on AA pensions.


http://www.star-telegram.com/business/colu...ry/1380968.html

 

[The Dissident]

I guess its real easy to tell people to give up their pension when yours isnt on the line. Next thing he will be championing an ESOP just like UAL and just like UAL they bankers and money changers will steal that from us as well.

 

[FWAAA]

AA is not required to contribute to the pensions this year but is facing huge minimum contributions next year. If markets continue to recover as they have for the last couple of months, that will reduce the required contributions.

Even though AA has contributed over $2 billion to its pensions since 2002, WN has spent as much or more on its defined contribution plans over the same period and it has had many fewer employees. If markets recover, AA's plans will continue to be the cheaper alternative. If markets don't recover, then AA will be in the same boat as US and UA (unable to satisfy the legally required contributions) and will probably file Ch 11.

 

[The Goose]

If markets don't recover, then AA will be in the same boat as US and UA (unable to satisfy the legally required contributions) and will probably file Ch 11.

That would seem to be Horton's plan, considering the management sabotage to the bringing in of outside work.

Even though no quals are set forth in the USC re: bankruptcy, their will have to be an "incentive" to shove their plans down our throats. Evidently, the board and their minions feel that we're dumb enough to buy into another "sky-is-falling" scenario - hopefully, many have learned since the 2003 give-backs (on the advice of piss-poor representation), but sadly, I believe they may be correct overall.

A bankruptcy would be no good for anyone but would most certainly "spread the pain" to all levels and not confine it to the workers. All would get screwed - not just the worker bees.

 

[Maark767]

That would seem to be Horton's plan, considering the management sabotage to the bringing in of outside work.

Even though no quals are set forth in the USC re: bankruptcy, their will have to be an "incentive" to shove their plans down our throats. Evidently, the board and their minions feel that we're dumb enough to buy into another "sky-is-falling" scenario - hopefully, many have learned since the 2003 give-backs (on the advice of piss-poor representation), but sadly, I believe they may be correct overall.

A bankruptcy would be no good for anyone but would most certainly "spread the pain" to all levels and not confine it to the workers. All would get screwed - not just the worker bees.

If AA was going to take the BK road, the filing would have happened along time ago.... The company (meaning workers) have come too far for a BK filing this late in the game.

 

[Hopeful]

If AA was going to take the BK road, the filing would have happened along time ago.... The company (meaning workers) have come too far for a BK filing this late in the game.

And once again they're hoping for the unions to roll over and play dead once more. This time the workers see things differently since most of us are still sharing the pain while Arpey & Co. share the gains. AArogant management doesn't want to lose certain controls to a bankruptcy court but would prefer to decimate the workers through threats of bankruptcy.

Sure they would love to rid themselves of the pensions in exchange for a paltry 5% 401k match.


Let the executives settle for a mere 5% 401k match AND NOTHING else!

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

And once again they're hoping for the unions to roll over and play dead once more. This time the workers see things differently since most of us are still sharing the pain while Arpey & Co. share the gains. AArogant management doesn't want to lose certain controls to a bankruptcy court but would prefer to decimate the workers through threats of bankruptcy.

You're not going to like hearing this: right now, with the economy in the worst shape since the great depression according to the media experts (never mind the J. Carter years) - now is the perfect time for the company to ask for and probably get even more concessions, or to maintain the status quo for a while longer. Think about it, all the doom and gloom in the economy, things are definitely worse than 2003! Back then you were lucky to have a job compared to UA, US, etc., now/today - you're lucky to have a job at all! I'm almost sure your union bosses may see it this way, and maybe enough of your fellow employees too. Also, don't kid yourself about the bankruptcy court sticking it to management - AA's isn't that dumb - they'll come out OK if they go the chpt. 11 route - can't say the same for organized labor.

 

[Maark767]

And once again they're hoping for the unions to roll over and play dead once more. This time the workers see things differently since most of us are still sharing the pain while Arpey & Co. share the gains. AArogant management doesn't want to lose certain controls to a bankruptcy court but would prefer to decimate the workers through threats of bankruptcy.

Sure they would love to rid themselves of the pensions in exchange for a paltry 5% 401k match.


Let the executives settle for a mere 5% 401k match AND NOTHING else!

I don't know anyone that would go for that same BS they fed us in 2003. They had one chance and only one chance to play that card. I don't see any union on the property that's going to roll over and play dead.... Surely not the F/As ....

 

[Maark767]

You're not going to like hearing this: right now, with the economy in the worst shape since the great depression according to the media experts (never mind the J. Carter years) - now is the perfect time for the company to ask for and probably get even more concessions, or to maintain the status quo for a while longer. Think about it, all the doom and gloom in the economy, things are definitely worse than 2003! Back then you were lucky to have a job compared to UA, US, etc., now/today - you're lucky to have a job at all! I'm almost sure your union bosses may see it this way, and maybe enough of your fellow employees too. Also, don't kid yourself about the bankruptcy court sticking it to management - AA's isn't that dumb - they'll come out OK if they go the chpt. 11 route - can't say the same for organized labor.

When you are in the inside looking out .... then come and talk. Your outside view is old and staled We aren't buying that crap anymore...
The company wants everyone to think just like you..... Well it's not going to work this time around.
See you at the BK court I guess... Go ahead and file...

 

[FWAAA]

A bankruptcy would be no good for anyone but would most certainly "spread the pain" to all levels and not confine it to the workers. All would get screwed - not just the worker bees.

You may be right, but I'm not sure the much-hated PSP-receiving executives would be harmed by a Ch 11 filing. At US, UA, NW and DL, their top executives grabbed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of stock of their employers upon plan confirmation. Wouldn't the hated AA execs do the same thing? Wouldn't it be like the PSP plan on steroids? Court-imposed terms on the workers and armloads of cash/stock for the chiefs.

I don't recall widespread management firings at those other airlines during bankruptcy or huge management paycuts. Sure, their existing stock becomes worthless, but bucketloads of new stock can reduce the sadness.

I agree that a Ch 11 filing would hurt "all" as long as you define "all" as everyone except the 900 or so PSP recipients.

Who would feel the most pain? According to AA, there are about 7,500 licensed mechanics at AFW, TULE and MCIE. Total employment at those facilities is almost 10,000. My hunch is that those guys would feel most of the pain. Delta is now a much larger airline than AA, performs lots of MRO work for other airlines, yet its mechanics and related group totals only about 6,000 people including the 1,000 NW mechanics that remained after their workforce was decimated.

Maybe Arpey wasn't paying attention to what was going on at OAK and IND, but even so, someone at AA was taking notes. Those widebodies fly to those overseas third world destinations anyways, so why not hire some of those ferriners to maintain them?

When bankruptcy was discussed on this forum two or three years ago, the assumption was that if AA filed, it would use the opportunity to dump the AB6s and maybe half of the MD-80s (the leased ones).

But what happened? AA is parking the AB6s and some MD-80s all on its own without the benefits Ch 11.

Now, new 738s are arriving, so pilots and FAs probably wouldn't take too big a hit on headcount. Management ranks would probably increase, with some new VPs of Bankruptcy, Insolvency and Screwing the Employees a must. Oh, and don't forget, the new VP of Enhancing Management Take-Home Pay.

You may be right, but I fear that Ch 11's pain would be visited mostly on those middle-America mechanics in Fort Worth, Tulsa and Kansas City and the execs would be spared.

 

[Maark767]

You're not going to like hearing this: right now, with the economy in the worst shape since the great depression according to the media experts (never mind the J. Carter years) - now is the perfect time for the company to ask for and probably get even more concessions, or to maintain the status quo for a while longer. Think about it, all the doom and gloom in the economy, things are definitely worse than 2003! Back then you were lucky to have a job compared to UA, US, etc., now/today - you're lucky to have a job at all! I'm almost sure your union bosses may see it this way, and maybe enough of your fellow employees too. Also, don't kid yourself about the bankruptcy court sticking it to management - AA's isn't that dumb - they'll come out OK if they go the chpt. 11 route - can't say the same for organized labor.

Furthermore the company is well positioned to weather the storm. With the cuts from 2003 and the grounding of airplanes along with double digit capacity cuts.... not to mention the all the layoffs... things will be just fine here...

 

[The Goose]

...
Also, don't kid yourself about the bankruptcy court sticking it to management - AA's isn't that dumb - they'll come out OK if they go the chpt. 11 route - can't say the same for organized labor.

As is quite typical of the management breed, you seem to not have read my post very well or have trouble comprehending English if the subject is too far from what you consider acceptable. I'll try again.

I said (or implied) labor and management would both get hosed quite badly if the company should file for Chapter 11 protection. Perhaps the mismanagement may not get it as bad as most would like to see but the law is somewhat different. The office-based purveyors of negative pressure seem to conveniently forget that fact during any of these conversations.

The October 2005 changes in the law (USCode). Delta and Northworst entered Chapter 11 just before the law changed to take advantage of the corporate benefits, some of which have been erased.

In particular is the provision that retention bonuses will not be paid unless there is a valid job offer to the executive who is the subject of said retention bonus. The BK judge will then have the option of allowing the payment of the retention or telling the exec to take the job. This bonus nonsense for retention, I believe, is part of the reason filed BK - the execs and board could get an immense amount of bucks thrown at them. How this would have any effect on the shares awarded upon emergence is an unknown factor. The other reasoning, obviously, is to discharge legitimate debt mainly acquired through corporate stupidity.

The new Chapter 11 bankruptcy provisions haven't been tested with a company American's size or larger. GM and Chrysler may be worth watching as nobody knows how this will all play out and they might give some indication of the law's application and who it will benefit.

I'm really not interested in being a test case for the laws but I haven't the fear of it I once did. As Mr. Hopeful said, the three unions on the property aren't going to lay down and pee on our bellies as was done in 2003.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

As is quite typical of the management breed, you seem to not have read my post very well or have trouble comprehending English if the subject is too far from what you consider acceptable. I'll try again.

The new Chapter 11 bankruptcy provisions haven't been tested with a company American's size or larger. GM and Chrysler may be worth watching as nobody knows how this will all play out and they might give some indication of the law's application and who it will benefit.

I read & understood your post. Although the bankruptcy laws have been changed, I'm still disagreeing with your opinion . You're so blinded by bitterness towards the execs that you're praying that a chpt. 11 filing + a judge will teach them a lesson & stick it to them.

Also I wouldn't be too eager to look at Chrysler (& possibly GM in the near future) chpt. 11 proceedings. Here the US goverment is more or less providing the DIP financing, hence dictating the terms, as they could since it is their $$$ (getting rid of those evil, greedy executives). I doubt AA would be dumb enough to ask for US government bailout $$$ (seeing now the occupation & destruction of the private sector by the federal government after receiving the bailout $$$).

 

[Hopeful]

You're not going to like hearing this: right now, with the economy in the worst shape since the great depression according to the media experts (never mind the J. Carter years) - now is the perfect time for the company to ask for and probably get even more concessions, or to maintain the status quo for a while longer. Think about it, all the doom and gloom in the economy, things are definitely worse than 2003! Back then you were lucky to have a job compared to UA, US, etc., now/today - you're lucky to have a job at all! I'm almost sure your union bosses may see it this way, and maybe enough of your fellow employees too. Also, don't kid yourself about the bankruptcy court sticking it to management - AA's isn't that dumb - they'll come out OK if they go the chpt. 11 route - can't say the same for organized labor.

But of course the executives exempt from the status quo, isn't that right frugs?

Same old tune you sing about lucky to have a job, very old and tiring.

As for Chapter 11, tell us frugs, why didn't they file in 2003?
Don;t you realize the could have fired tens of thousands of more jobs, close overhaul bases, outsource jobs, cut remaining salaries even further and reward the executives even more?

Tell us, frugal...why wouldn't they have filed already?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

But of course the executives exempt from the status quo, isn't that right frugs?

Same old tune you sing about lucky to have a job, very old and tiring.

As for Chapter 11, tell us frugs, why didn't they file in 2003?
Don;t you realize the could have fired tens of thousands of more jobs, close overhaul bases, outsource jobs, cut remaining salaries even further and reward the executives even more?

Tell us, frugal...why wouldn't they have filed already?

First, I'm just trying to play the advocate here, telling you how management might try to sell concessions or at least the status quo. I'm not saying who's lucky to have a job or isn't or what the execs should or shouldn't be getting. As to why AMR didn't file in 2003: there was no need after labor "agreed" to concessions. By not filing they still have that option to use at a time of their liking.