Get rid of Pensions? OP-ED

[Bob Owens]

What would you know about airfares? When was the last time you paid 100% out of your own pocket? What do you know about my spending at AA or any other airline?

Good thing there are 2 engines. The remaining working one will be enough to get me safely to the nearest airport - so I can call an attorney for a lawsuit ASAP

Good luck with that. Your Attorney may make some money, off you, but you wont.

Not worried here either. With modern technology and gadgets like TCAS the airplanes basically fly themselves.

Tell that to the relatives of the people who were on that commuter plane in upstate NY a few weeks back.

Don't you know that in a crash, a person like me would not hesitate to push the elderly, women and children out of my way to get to the emergency exit / slide!

See previous reply.

May the Lord bless you and keep you in His grace also.

I think you would need to change your ways before you can count on that.

 

[eolesen]

Can anyone here say denial?.....

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

By the way, I'm presently sitting in an airport waiting for my full fare flight-couldn't risk not getting on. It sure feels good not having the stress of standby.

I hope you wore your flip flops and a tank top just because

 

[frontline]

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if these points have already been made. I can't say I'm surprised by an opinion article discussing the viability of pensions. Great as they are for the worker, we've seen (in our own industry) what happens when companies can't foot the bill. The pensions get dumped on the government, and the workers usually lose benefits as a result.

Lots of companies have stopped offering pension plans to new hires. IBM comes to mind. And most of the tech sector companies (the younger ones, anyway) never even bothered to offer them, favoring 401K plans instead (sometimes with matching contributions but more often not).

Right or wrong, love it or hate it, the trend is pretty clearly moving toward pensions disappearing, at least in the private sector. Young workers better start stuff those IRAs and 401Ks, since they probably won't have company pensions or social security when they get to retirement age.

 

[The Goose]

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if these points have already been made. I can't say I'm surprised by an opinion article discussing the viability of pensions. Great as they are for the worker, we've seen (in our own industry) what happens when companies can't foot the bill. The pensions get dumped on the government, and the workers usually lose benefits as a result.

Lots of companies have stopped offering pension plans to new hires. IBM comes to mind. And most of the tech sector companies (the younger ones, anyway) never even bothered to offer them, favoring 401K plans instead (sometimes with matching contributions but more often not).

Right or wrong, love it or hate it, the trend is pretty clearly moving toward pensions disappearing, at least in the private sector. Young workers better start stuff those IRAs and 401Ks, since they probably won't have company pensions or social security when they get to retirement age.

Pensions were guaranteed by the PBGC up to a maximum of $44,500 per year ($3708/month). It has since risen - I believe the max now is around $54k. Whatever one was supposed to receive upon retirement, assuming 65 years old, is what that person will get, up to the stated maximum. Someone that retired early (pre-65) would take a helluva bath, as I understand it.

The real losers would be the pilots and the executive types not covered under the set-aside ($46 million) that Carty and the board of directors tried to sneak past those voting on the 2003 contract - the real reason for the voting deadline back then.

Whatever monthly benefit you've earned up to this point (assuming full retirement age) is what you will receive as we as TWU don't make enough for the limitations to kick in. Some may, but they'd have to have well over 40 years with the company.

 

[butchord45]

So why are we afraid of BK......if our pensions will be guaranteed. At least guaranteed up to what we have earned up until now anyway.
F/A's shouldn't care, TWU shouldn't care..........oh but I guess some folks will

Pensions were guaranteed by the PBGC up to a maximum of $44,500 per year ($3708/month). It has since risen - I believe the max now is around $54k. Whatever one was supposed to receive upon retirement, assuming 65 years old, is what that person will get, up to the stated maximum. Someone that retired early (pre-65) would take a helluva bath, as I understand it.

The real losers would be the pilots and the executive types not covered under the set-aside ($46 million) that Carty and the board of directors tried to sneak past those voting on the 2003 contract - the real reason for the voting deadline back then.

Whatever monthly benefit you've earned up to this point (assuming full retirement age) is what you will receive as we as TWU don't make enough for the limitations to kick in. Some may, but they'd have to have well over 40 years with the company.

 

[FWAAA]

So why are we afraid of BK......if our pensions will be guaranteed. At least guaranteed up to what we have earned up until now anyway.
F/A's shouldn't care, TWU shouldn't care..........oh but I guess some folks will

As I've posted before (and as The Goose mentioned above), only the pilots' pensions are seriously endangered in case of a bankruptcy filing.

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that there are some mechanics in Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth who are worried about their stations being "Indianapolised" or "Oaklanded" if AA filed a Ch 11 petition. Perhaps they're a little afraid of bankruptcy.

 

[MCI transplant]

As I've posted before (and as The Goose mentioned above), only the pilots' pensions are seriously endangered in case of a bankruptcy filing.

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that there are some mechanics in Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth who are worried about their stations being "Indianapolised" or "Oaklanded" if AA filed a Ch 11 petition. Perhaps they're a little afraid of bankruptcy.

<_< -----FWAA, I feel the worst that could happen to Tulsa, would be a drastic scale back, and work outsourced overseas. But in todays economic / political environment, I don't think that would be a vary "popular" move on the part of AA!------ Fort Worth, and MCI, now that might be another matter! As far as MCI is concerned, they've already cut it to the bare bone. They wouldn't gain a whole lot by closing it!------ As for being "a little afraid of bankruptcy", most people here have been through it with TWA. "Afraid" wouldn't be the right word to describe their feelings on the subject. More like "Concern"!------- They know what to expect. --------Oh, by the way! I'm already getting a check from the P.B.G.C., and have been for some time now!

 

[frontline]

So why are we afraid of BK......if our pensions will be guaranteed. At least guaranteed up to what we have earned up until now anyway.
F/A's shouldn't care, TWU shouldn't care..........oh but I guess some folks will

"Guaranteed" is a funny thing. After absorbing pensions from DL, NW, UA and US in the last five years (to say nothing of what will happen with GM and Chrysler) is PBGC going to stay solvent long enough for us to collect? Our "wise" government is piling debt upon debt to the point that it is going to be very difficult to pay back without massive tax hikes.

At any rate, I agree with The Goose that pilots and early retirees have the most to lose. And yet the pilots are the ones pushing the company the hardest toward the cliff. Go figure!

 

[WeAAsles]

I think that it would be ok to offer employees if they would like to get out of the pensions for a 401K op? No sort of retirement benefits seem to be safe today anyway. I know that my friend who's 35 would go for it. I'm 44 and think that I would keep the pension option? Future hire pensions are probably going to be gone after the new contracts anyway? Of course it's all going to depend on what kind of match AA will contribute? I also know that being single I'll be retiring to Latin America on a little beach somewhere.

 

[frontline]

I'm all about a nice Costa Rican or Panamanian beach retirement.

I agree that pensions for new guys are going to be a a thing of the past. Nothing is really "safe" anymore but companies keep discontinuing pension for new employees and moving toward a 401K structure (sometimes with matching, sometimes not.)

The really smart ones here are the AA pilots who took the lump sums these last couple years. Some cleared more than a million.

 

[Bob Owens]

You're not going to like hearing this: right now, with the economy in the worst shape since the great depression according to the media experts (never mind the J. Carter years) - now is the perfect time for the company to ask for and probably get even more concessions, or to maintain the status quo for a while longer. Think about it, all the doom and gloom in the economy, things are definitely worse than 2003! Back then you were lucky to have a job compared to UA, US, etc., now/today - you're lucky to have a job at all! I'm almost sure your union bosses may see it this way, and maybe enough of your fellow employees too.

Well I wonder how much of this "bad economy" is media hype and how much is real? When I get on the roads I see just as many cars, the traffic jams certainly havent diminished, the store parking lots are still full, the planes are full every time I fly which is usually every week. I dont know anyone, other one cousin in construction (who volunteered to be laid off so he could do some travelling), who is out of work. I would say for the much smaller number of people who are out of work they are the unlucky ones because the vast majority of people are still working, my guess is that the total number of people employed in this country is still at a higher number than it was when Jimmy Carter was President. The problem is the lack of pay, not the lack of jobs, you shouldnt need to work two or more jobs to get by.

I think the Feds are constricting the supply of money and creating hardship in an effort to lower wage rates across the lower end of society. They want to do this prior of the coming shortage of labor as baby boomers try leave the workforce. Low birth rates are creating future labor shortages, the US has offset this through immigration, native intolerance to immigration is growing, if the government acts upon the will of the people wage rates would skyrocket. Good for us, bad for employers.

 

[FWAAA]

More people still employed than when Carter was President? Of course there are, since the US population is about 40% larger now than in 1977. The labor force has grown substantially in the last 32 years. US population estimate in 1977? About 220 million.

US population estimate in 2008? About 304 million. 2009? About 306 million:

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/census.html

Current unemployment is "media hype?" Yep. Same media hype as the 2001 recession, the 1990-91 recession, the 1981-82 downturn, the 1973-75 oil price shock, the 1970 slowdown and the 1960-61 recession and all the recessions that preceded those.

Yes, the planes are full. Full of pasengers paying almost 20% less on average than last spring. Even worse is the dropoff in premium travel demand and paid fares.

 

[TWU informer]

Must fly Airplanes at a loss

Must fly Airplanes at a loss

I will get my bonus, Just fly Airplanes at a loss

 

[Bob Owens]

As I've posted before (and as The Goose mentioned above), only the pilots' pensions are seriously endangered in case of a bankruptcy filing.

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that there are some mechanics in Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth who are worried about their stations being "Indianapolised" or "Oaklanded" if AA filed a Ch 11 petition. Perhaps they're a little afraid of bankruptcy.

Kansas City is only a fraction of what it once was.