Group 3 Pilots Get Screwed!

[birdseyeview]

If you look at the proposal that the negotiating committee has given the company, you will see that it protects (at the junior pilot's expense) the pilots who are senior enough to fly Group 1 and 2 aircraft. Our pilot negotiators don't feel that America West's ONE PAY SCALE( regardless of which aircraft you fly) is good enough for the most senior f/o's and c/o's at Usairways. This kind of thinking was fine when we were working for a company that was expanding and everyone would eventually reap the benefits of flying the 330/767/757 at higher pay rates, but that is not reality now.

The REALITY of the negotiating committee's proposal is that it makes the junior pilots SUBSIDIZE the pilots flying these aircraft. The dollars saved by having these pilots fly at the same rate as everyone else means LESS of a cut in pay for the Group 3 pilots.

Every pilot at U has no "career expectations" anymore. It's time for our negotiating committee to realize the WE ARE ALL IN THIS BOAT TOGETHER and that we should all be paid the same based on C/O or F/O.

 

[700UW]

Typical ALPA.

 

[Bluestreak]

What a surprise. ALPA using other ALPA members to subsidize a more senior pilot group? Sounds kind of like what the express pilots were expected to do for the mainline pilots for the last 20 years or so. So much sh*t has rolled down hill it is starting to pile up and now the junior mainliners smell the stench. What's that on your shoe? Put you resume out there. You'll feel better. Imagine the great day when you don't have to depend on U for a paycheck anymore.

 

[TheLarkAscending]

IAAM should be ALPA's new initials

I have it on relatively good authority that the reason for the "Me too" with the F/A's is due to a long running affair a ALPA officer had with a F/A and allegedly his efforts to protect his "Squeeze" resulted in th "Me Too" aspects of of the AFA contract.

That is a bunch of hooey and I can't even believe that you have the audacity to post crap like that. It is pure hearsay and I have lost every ounce of respect that I had remaining for you.

 

[InclusiveScope]

If you look at the proposal that the negotiating committee has given the company, you will see that it protects (at the junior pilot's expense) the pilots who are senior enough to fly Group 1 and 2 aircraft. Our pilot negotiators don't feel that America West's ONE PAY SCALE( regardless of which aircraft you fly) is good enough for the most senior f/o's and c/o's at Usairways. This kind of thinking was fine when we were working for a company that was expanding and everyone would eventually reap the benefits of flying the 330/767/757 at higher pay rates, but that is not reality now.

The REALITY of the negotiating committee's proposal is that it makes the junior pilots SUBSIDIZE the pilots flying these aircraft. The dollars saved by having these pilots fly at the same rate as everyone else means LESS of a cut in pay for the Group 3 pilots.

Every pilot at U has no "career expectations" anymore. It's time for our negotiating committee to realize the WE ARE ALL IN THIS BOAT TOGETHER and that we should all be paid the same based on C/O or F/O.

Birdseyeview,

Welcome to the world of the regional pilots. Those of us who fly for PDT, ALG, PSA, ASA, CMR, EGL have been subsidizing the mainline pay and retirement for years. Now you get to taste the ALPA S#$%! Sandwich. ALPA's new motto is "sell out the junior guys"! While I can relate, I have no sympathy. Why do the narrowbody mainline pilots make so much more than the RJ pilots - same concept.
What goes around comes around.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

IAAM should be ALPA's new initials

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!

I have it on relatively good authority that the reason for the "Me too" with the F/A's is due to a long running affair a ALPA officer had with a F/A and allegedly his efforts to protect his "Squeeze" resulted in th "Me Too" aspects of of the AFA contract.

OOPS, Go back and insert "There is reason to believe" then this post can be like his. unsubstantiated rumor sprinkled with facts

Even if that was true I can't understand why you would post something like that

 

[mwereplanes]

If you look at the proposal that the negotiating committee has given the company, you will see that it protects (at the junior pilot's expense) the pilots who are senior enough to fly Group 1 and 2 aircraft. Our pilot negotiators don't feel that America West's ONE PAY SCALE( regardless of which aircraft you fly) is good enough for the most senior f/o's and c/o's at Usairways. This kind of thinking was fine when we were working for a company that was expanding and everyone would eventually reap the benefits of flying the 330/767/757 at higher pay rates, but that is not reality now.

The REALITY of the negotiating committee's proposal is that it makes the junior pilots SUBSIDIZE the pilots flying these aircraft. The dollars saved by having these pilots fly at the same rate as everyone else means LESS of a cut in pay for the Group 3 pilots.

Every pilot at U has no "career expectations" anymore. It's time for our negotiating committee to realize the WE ARE ALL IN THIS BOAT TOGETHER and that we should all be paid the same based on C/O or F/O.

So what is the next logical step, in your scenario, since we were all Captains at one time or another?

Why not negotiate the same hourly rate regardless of which seat you fly in? All pilots make the same hourly rate. That would be fair wouldn't it? And if you don't think that it would be why not? You're not an FO because you don't have the experience to be a Captain. It's because of your seniority. Oh yeah, seniority.

If all jets paid the same hourly rate would not the senior folks be taking a larger percentage pay cut and subsidizing the junior guys. Is that any more or less fair than than the scenario you've presented? Wait, there's more:

Since I make more money than my neighbor, should I pay more for a gallon of milk? Since my other neighbor makes more than I should he pay more than me for a gallon of gas? Your logic is flawed.

Seniority has flaws. Always has and always will. But changing the rules in the middle of the game isn't going to happen. America West has always had that pay scheme. We have not. Age and luck have always played major role in an airline pilot's career progression. Now you want the lucky ones to subsidize the unlucky ones. Sounds fair to me. Kind of like socialism.

mr

 

[Bluestreak]

MR

Age and luck shouldn't control an airline pilot's career.

 

[mwereplanes]

And people shouldn't die in car accidents.

Of course they shouldn't. Thanks for stating the obvious. But fair has never been part of any equation when pilot seniority is involved. I assume you know that. You take your chances and hope for the best. I imagine Southwest pilots would have loved to trade seniority numbers with a Delta or AMR guy 10 or 15 years ago.

My career is in serious jeopardy after almost 30 years. That is just the way it is. I cannot control it. I can only prepare for it. Luck and age my friend. If you are just now realizing it you must have been asleep for the most part of your career.

mr

 

[Bluestreak]

Mr

You must be the one that has been asleep. 30 years and your career is in jeopardy? Were you a voting union member that entire time? Five years ago as a naive 24 year old newhire at PSA, I could see U ALPA was running U off a cliff. Why didn't you step up and stop it? It has taken two seperate management teams two years of beating the unions heads for them to finally realize this place is in some serious trouble.

And you know what? You're going to have to accept even lower wages than our LCC competitors for this place to suvive. The reason is U's huge debt. All else being equal; employee wages, fuel prices, and maintenence costs, U still has a huge debt load. How can we get our costs as low as Southwest and Airtran when we have to service a massive debt? The only variable in that equation that can be controlled is employee wages. You're lost wages are going to pay down that debt or else it's Chapter 7.

Either way, I am covered. I'll go work at an LCC when they rush to fill the void left by U. I think netjets hires guys over 60. It's all age and luck.

 

[mwereplanes]

My union running U off a cliff? I see you must sleep with 320. Friend, you have no clue how mismanged this company has been. Been to PHL recently? I suppose all the legacy carriers have been run off the cliff by their unions. Yeah, ALPA is responsible for LCC's and the pardigm shift that has occured. DAL, with all their RJ's is sure in a lot better shape than us eh?

Yes, my aviation career is in jeopardy. Not my financial well being. Unlike some of my fellow pilots I paid attention to the wake up call when Braniff shut down in the early 80's. I flew through DFW the morning after they shut down. Not a pretty sight. Were you born yet when that happened? I am the only person responsible for my future. Not my union, and not the management of my airline. Age and luck happened to put me in the flying job at the right time. Hard work, skill and being an entreprenuer will allow me to walk away without having to fly airplanes for a living at wages you obviously have and will continue to accept. You seem a bit bitter. Contrary to your assertation of being asleep for 30 years, I have been preparing for what is happening for about that same amount of time. Maybe you should start thinking about it intead of working for the same money you could make selling cars.

Age and luck. That's what control a pilot's career. Not his life. I continue to work here because I was lucky enough to get hired young and in a growth cycle. Thus, with my seniority, my pay and working conditions continue to be reasonable. And I still enjoy the flying. When those two items become unreasonable I will resign and play golf. Or this company will shut down. And then I will play golf. Or I will start another business and sell it just like the last two. Either way, flying is not something that will be in my future unless I choose it to be. Apparently you cannot say that.

You better have a backup plan pal. Flying is no longer a career. It is a job. And if you don't have the correct age and luck it's not a very good job either.

mr

 

[birdseyeview]

Reply to MWEREPLANES:

Sorry I was out flying and could not respond right away. I am going to guess based on what you said that you are a 767 international c/o, about 54 years old with 30 years seniority that probably hasn't done a walk-around for 25 years because that's ONLY the f/o's job. You never were on B-scale and now you're mad that you had to take a pay cut from probably $260 hr down to $200/hr. Give me a break with you "seniority" argument.

The rules of the game have changed and you and our union better realize that this elitest attitude about " I've got 30 years here and I'm a C/O on a 767 and I deserve more money per hour because I've been here longer than you have and its not my fault the your're going to be a lifetime F/O...." is a bunch of crap from you and our union which is still operating under some misplaced notion of entitlement.

The number of pilots at U that are still reaping the benefits of flying at a higher pay scale because they can fly the Group 1 and 2 aircraft is small compared to the Group 3 pilot numbers and when Group 3 pilots start realizing and thinking about the fact that they most likely will never be eligible for a GROUP 1 or 2 position the rest of their career at U, they too will be voting to abolish this inequity that never existed before because we were working for a growing company.

You stated that I probably think also that a C/O and F/O should be paid the same amount of money based on my original post to this forum. WHERE DO YOU GET THAT FROM WHAT I SAID? My point is very simple. I do not believe (now,in the new situation we all find ourselves in) that your service to this company is more valuable than the pay for a 319 C/O.

No, I don't think you should have to pay more for a gallon of milk at the same grocery store because you make more money than I do, but what I want you to accept is the fact that you are not entitled to hang onto a "PERK" that was negotiated years and years ago considering the crisis our industry is experiencing presently. It is simply a PERK that the Group 3 pilots can no longer afford to subsidize.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

No, I don't think you should have to pay more for a gallon of milk at the same grocery store because you make more money than

Why not? I heard members of unions under same contract different classifications want to pay less dues for the same representation because they make less.

 

[mwereplanes]

Bird,

You're not being consistent. If you think a 319 captain and a 767 captain are equal in pay then why would a former captain who is now an FO not be equal? And for the record I am not pissed, not an elitist, do plenty of walkarounds on many flights (hint, hint) and don't feel "entitled" to anything. I give up 12.5% and so do you. What is it about that that is unfair? And if you say its not fair because I make more money than you then I refer you back to my gallon of milk argument. You sound like a pissed off socialist to me. You are arguing on emotion.

The "perk" you speak of is the fact that I was hired before you were. That doesn't make me any more or less skilled than you. Only more senior. What you can't quite grasp is the issue of seniority. Everything we have done before has been based on it. Everything we do from here on in will be based on it. Your anger is directed at me (rather my seniority) and you expect me to give up something so your life is less painful. Simply because I was hired before you. Not gonna happen. You and I knew the rules going in and now you want to change them because it fits YOUR need and not mine.

But at least be consistent in your argument. We all have the same skills. So at least argue that we should all be paid the same regardless of seat. Try to keep emotion out of it. When you cannot argue factually you have no argument. Facts, not emotion, is what wins debate. Liberals have yet to figure that out.

Seniority is sacrosanct. Along with the percieved benefits or detriments that go along with it. Or would you prefer we started awarding Captain jobs and pay based on merit and job performance in the simulator and on the line? It cannot be both ways. Either you have a seniority system or you do not. Should we all fly 25 hours a month and bring back all the furloughees? Where would your charity end? After you got yours? What about the 3000 guys on the street? Is a 319 Captain and a EMB 170 Captain worth the same. Because if the 767 and 319 are then so is the 170. Do you see what I'm getting at? When and if we start growing again do we dock the 319 guys and start paying the 767 guys more? Next step: An Airbus 380 Captain will be paid the same as a CL-600 Captain. Sounds silly doesn't it? I say again America West pay started like that. We did not. Your argument is flawed. But I enjoy the debate.

Lakefield and the boys love it when we are at each others throats. But I'll tell you one thing. I voted against LOA 91. And I'll vote against a 12.5% pay cut. I will not fly jets around making the same amount of money that Lexus salesmen make. Regardless of how "financially troubled" this company is. My limit is very close to being reached. When that happens, you will gain a number. Thats the system. And it's not going to change.

mr

 

[Phoenix]

Lighten Up!

It was an old rumor floating around and was designed to poke fun at a certain captain.

I caught it. And I am deeply offended. Believe me, it is real deep.

Gee... is he still a captain.