Furlough Administrator Update - June 5

BoeingBoy

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Nov 9, 2003
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As far as I'm concerned, the training freeze throws a monkey wrench in lots of things and I've never been convinced it saves any money, much less enough to outweigh the complications it causes.

If you, as a furloughee, knew that if you came back to the 190 f/o you would be able to bid to the 737/Airbus right seat in a few months as opposed to being stuck on the 190 for 18 months, would that affect your decision? While possibly not you personally, I suspect it would influence a lot of furloughed folks.

I've argued with the folks at resource planning over the value of the training freeze for 17 years to no avail. FWIW, I've also argued with them about the 'phantom bid' ala PI, also to no avail. The "Weve always done it this way" philosophy is alive and well.

Jim
 

Swaayze

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Sep 5, 2002
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This may throw a big wrench into the plans of furloughees. Many of us planned to bypass until able to hold the 73/AB slots but now may have to accept 190 to avoid a delay of years in recall. Theorhetically we could even see newhires off the street in 73/AB slots prior to current furloughees (think prior commitments like job contracts preventing early return or personal issues like home purchase, kids finishing school, etc). Now it is illuminated that it will almost require accepting the 190 slot to position yourself for the first available 73/AB slot unless you feel you will definitely get a 73/AB slot w/in the next 18 months.

I do find it hard to believe there's not an easy workaround here. How hard could it really be to award 73/AB slots first to current pilots, then determine how many and where the others are, then award those via APL order regardless of an APL pilot's current position (190 FO or off the property should be moot)? Or, couldn't the bids be run to include all pilots with a seniority number each time? Then if an APL pilot can hold a vacancy he is recalled; if not he remains furloughed. I doubt it would take much effort but we won't hold our breath. BTW this is the way it should be done anyway IMO.
 

nostradamus

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Dec 7, 2004
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It never ceases to amaze me, the insensitivity and short sightedness shown by the older incumbent workers toward the young people trying to start or keep a career in aviation. Here is a good idea, walk a mile in their shoes. They are young naïve people, who need leadership not resentment. Lets all sit back and remember when we started. What were you paid? Did you even care at the time? You just wanted to work in an occupation that you found interesting and had hope for the future. They are no different than you were.

The returning furloughed pilots have no say in the pay they will receive, it was set by unions and okayd by members who would sell them and retirees down the river just to protect their own ample rear ends, then have the audacity to turn their noses up toward them.
 

careerfurloughee

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Apr 7, 2004
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It never ceases to amaze me, the insensitivity and short sightedness shown by the older incumbent workers toward the young people trying to start or keep a career in aviation. Here is a good idea, walk a mile in their shoes. They are young naïve people, who need leadership not resentment. Lets all sit back and remember when we started. What were you paid? Did you even care at the time? You just wanted to work in an occupation that you found interesting and had hope for the future. They are no different than you were.

The returning furloughed pilots have no say in the pay they will receive, it was set by unions and okayd by members who would sell them and retirees down the river just to protect their own ample rear ends, then have the audacity to turn their noses up toward them.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. Is the pay ok or not? Care to give us some of your background so we might be able to undersatnd where you are coming from and what you are trying to say?
 

Swaayze

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Sep 5, 2002
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Oh, and BTW, I suspect this more or less invalidates the recent recall survey as I suspect many of us didn't really think it through enough to uncover this 190 vs. 73/AB concept.
 

BoeingBoy

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Nov 9, 2003
16,512
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I do find it hard to believe there's not an easy workaround here.
Swaayze,

You're right, there are some "workarounds" that would work. Of course, they necessitate agreement by the company and someone from the union pushing for them (not sure I'd hold my breath on either happening).

Unfortunately, as all the furloughed folks know too well, there are no guarantees in this business. A furloughee could come back to a 737/Airbus F/O job then be displaced to the 190 a couple of months later.

FWIW, one of you can have my spot in 5 months, 14 days.....

Jim
 

Dorf

Senior
Oct 23, 2005
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Now it is illuminated that it will almost require accepting the 190 slot to position yourself for the first available 73/AB slot unless you feel you will definitely get a 73/AB slot w/in the next 18 months.

But don't you think those(some) vacancies in the 73/AB will be available to recalls? I mean, the 190 Capt slots are most likely going to be filled by junior F/O's who want to get the left seat/pay raise/quality of life, thus leaving the spots they vacated open. Add the retirements, and you may not have to take a 190 slot, and be frozen there, to get a 73/AB seat. In the first 55 recalls, I think something like 19 or 20 got the 757. Just curious if this is how you think it could/may work.
 

BoeingBoy

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Nov 9, 2003
16,512
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I want your exact spot. LOL Aren't you on the bid closing committee? Could you see what you could do about that?
As far as I'm concerned you can have it (might have to fight off some others though).

Yes, and as soon as I can talk them into paying me A330 rates till I retire - first things first, ya know!!!

But don't you think those(some) vacancies in the 73/AB will be available to recalls?
To preface, any generallity is going to have exceptions - especially when it comes to pilots and bidding. Take the same ten jobs and have ten pilots list them in order of preference, and I'd just about guarantee that they'd come up with at least 9 different lists.

That said, it probably won't be too much trouble for the furloughees to decide whether to come back or not until the first recalls start coming off their freeze - there'll be some 737/Airbus F/O jobs available, probably a smattering of E190 Capt jobs, then the E190 F/O jobs to choose from and they'll know what they can hold when they have to make their decision.

By the time the freezes start expiring for the first recallees (when they could get a shot at a 737/Airbus job ahead of a more senior pilot still on furlough), we'll most likely be working under a combined contract. Who knows what the bidding/recall provisions will be like then.

So for now, this is much ado about nothing but a potential problem. The much bigger problem that could appear sooner, IMHO, is the possibility of accepting recall to a 737/Airbus job only to be displaced to the E190, when the recall would have been passed if the only choice was the E190. Hopefully, attrition will make this a very slim possibility but the potential is there with aircraft leases expiring and leasors being able to take some airplanes back early.

Jim
 

pilot

Veteran
Jan 2, 2006
529
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It never ceases to amaze me, the insensitivity and short sightedness shown by the older incumbent workers toward the young people trying to start or keep a career in aviation. Here is a good idea, walk a mile in their shoes. They are young naïve people, who need leadership not resentment. Lets all sit back and remember when we started. What were you paid? Did you even care at the time? You just wanted to work in an occupation that you found interesting and had hope for the future. They are no different than you were.

The returning furloughed pilots have no say in the pay they will receive, it was set by unions and okayd by members who would sell them and retirees down the river just to protect their own ample rear ends, then have the audacity to turn their noses up toward them.

I'm trying to provide leadership sparky. These guys are way too experienced and valuable to be working for these wages. Of course they have a say in their pay. They don't have to accept it! Of course 57% of this pilot group sold them down the river as well as their own company. And now, they are coming back for more?

Future? As a pilot? Maybe one can be a widebody Captain someday. If he's like 25 years old RIGHT NOW. And that's a huge maybe. How many furloughees are that age? More likely is flying an RJ for wages a used car salesman makes for the rest of the career. Away from the family, in crappy motels, for what? The love of flying? Jeeez!

A guy with a college degree is worth substantially more than what is being paid. And there is a HUGE difference when I was young and furloughed. The light at the end of the tunnel was a widebody, good pay and a pension. Now the light is a train. And the guy driving the train is making more than these guys will be for the vast majority of their career.

pilot
 

fly with US

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Nov 11, 2005
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I'm trying to provide leadership sparky. These guys are way too experienced and valuable to be working for these wages. Of course they have a say in their pay. They don't have to accept it! Of course 57% of this pilot group sold them down the river as well as their own company. And now, they are coming back for more?

You think they want to accept these wages?

Most of them are "forced" to accept these wages. They have families to provide for. They could either go:

-to a different industry and get less than they are now.

-go to a different flying job and get the same now.

-or go to MidAtlantic with the understanging that while they will go to a right seat for the time being, the time it would take for an upgrade would be minimal. (After all, US is getting 85 of these bad boys :down: )

How dare you say that these pilots are bringing down the profession. They didn't ask to be in this position. They were the ones who got :censored: by their own company AND their own pilots. They have been screwed over like no other, treated like :censored: by everyone and their dogs, and yet they still provided a safe and reliable service to a company that didn't deserve it.

I don't know about you, but I think these guys bring a good name to your profession, a profession that is led by many :censored: who only think of the senior boys, and would be more than willing to sell a junior pilots kidney if it mean't anything to them.
 

pilot

Veteran
Jan 2, 2006
529
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No one is "forced" into accepting anything.

Read your last two paragraphs. I fully agree with what you are saying. And now these guys are coming back for more? Jeez! What does it take to make you realize there is no future here. The mangagement are scumbags. Their fellow pilots (57%)are scumbags. And the profession has become nothing more than a "job".

I know dozens of guys who have moved on to other professions. And yes, they make less at the start. But they are not beholden to some piece of crap management and fellow pilots who will sell them down the river in a heartbeat.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A PILOT TO MAKE A LIVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My god, you can sell cars and make more money than what is being offered. Don't try to sell me your "forced" crap. Call your local car dealer right now and see if you can get an interview. The guy that sold me my last car makes 75 grand WITHOUT his incentives.

And US is going to have a lot more than 85 of those "bad boys". They're going to replace the 737/320 and all will pay less than you can make selling cars. Because we accept it. And the senior guys don't give a crap. Just like the guys who take the jobs hoping they will make big money someday. It's not gonna happen.

pilot
 
Why do people think that the furloughees are all out begging for scraps in an RJ? Last I heard only a few hundred had decided to participate in J4J.

The rest have either found employment with other airlines (Southwest, Jetblue, FedEx, AirTran...), have found corporate jobs with superior pay and/or schedule to what they had at USAir, or have left the industry in search of a more stable profession.

If someone chooses to return to US Airways it is for one reason and one reason only:

The US Airways pay/benefits/lifestyle are superior or have the potential to be superior to those under which he is currently working.

The rest of us, I would suspect, are using the USAir seniority number as a cushion -- call it a "soft landing" if you prefer the term (I know i've heard it somewhere..). If for whatever reason the poop hits the fan at my current job it's nice to know I could come back to USAir when they call.

Pilot. Thanks for the offer of your leadership "sparky". If I need instructions on crossing the Atlantic i'll give you a call. I can handle my career decisions without your sage advice.

-Furloughed
 

pilot

Veteran
Jan 2, 2006
529
36
I'm sure you can...... Sounds like you alreay have.

But others don't seem to get it now do they?

And it's not advice - it's an opinion. That's what these boards are for.