honor guard

[YVINTERN]

This is very surreal but I'm sure the Guy messed up...now if he made a verbal statement then yeah I can see why the management would react in suspending him but...if he just gave it to the honor guard in a ballsy attempt then I suppose we all have had one of these bad days where no wrong can go right.

 

[matrix]

I was told that they weren't going to fire him. I don't see what suspending him will do. Everyone on the Phx ramp already knows of this incident. I don't know if anyone will ever show him any respect again.

 

[freedom]

Misunderstandings happen , in all the years I’ve been here , I’ve never been involved in any sort of honor guard with a body type of situation . I doubt the team at the gate was briefed in the manner in which this needed to be handled , and I like most Americans don’t know flag protocol .

Also I’d like to know on what grounds they might have suspended him on ? If he got into the plane and it was one of those huge caskets instead of a box , it might have in fact been necessary to remove the flag in order to get a handhold to get it out of the plane … I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that a male is usually at least 200 pounds , throw in one of those fancy coffins and that’s A LOT of weight for even two or three rampers to move out of a cargo hold . I don’t mean any disrespect to our government or the family of the man , I’m simply speaking from a practical sense .

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

and I like most Americans don’t know flag protocol .

Speak for yourself, when I was growing up and did the Cub Scout/Boy Scout thing, proper handling of the American flag was something we had to learn,never mind the fact our scoutmaster was a WWII vet who would've cracked our heads together if we had not handled the flag with anything but reverence and respect.

Learn a little something from this site:

Flag Rules of Etiquette, U.S. Flag Code


I seriously can't believe this pea brain would yank the flag off a casket in front of an honor guard and simply hand it to them like it was a used towel.


I don't know what they're teaching you people out there, but at AA we're told to stay the hell out of the way of escorted human remains.

 

[sharktooth]

It's true. It didn't show up on the news but there were so many supervisors and managers down there watching it. I didn't see anything on the local news about it. The guy was immediately taken off the ramp and suspended. He even went upstairs to close out the flight like a ramp lead. He's a conx team lead. My supervisor was standing out there watching it and told me himself. I was never in the military but I know that the honor guard only touches the flag and folds it and gives it to the family.

So, this is third hand gossip.

Border patrol dudes are not considered military, yet.

 

[matrix]

I don't believe it was casket. I think that was going to happen when he got to El Paso.

 

[sharktooth]

I seriously can't believe this pea brain would yank the flag off a casket in front of an honor guard and simply hand it to them like it was a used towel.

I realize the US people work for a cheap-arsed carrier with underpaid megalomaniacs "running" the show into the ground, but, for you to presume what you did is just as pathetic as many vicious rumors I hear. Thanks for participating.

Our rampers actually unload the remains, many times draping a flag over the casket as it begins its trip down the belt-loader. I have witnessed that operation more times than I would like and have seen a few fumbles from the DFW airport cop with his belly button exposed supplemental honor guard (just from the AM/PM I presume) to allowing a flag to touch the ground, CLT.

BFD. The person is dead. Get it? EDITED BY MODERATOR-SAME REASON AS PREVIOUS POST

 

[necigrad]

Speak for yourself, when I was growing up and did the Cub Scout/Boy Scout thing, proper handling of the American flag was something we had to learn,never mind the fact our scoutmaster was a WWII vet who would've cracked our heads together if we had not handled the flag with anything but reverence and respect.

And they do teach that in scouting. By and far, however, most people in the US have not been involved in scouting, short of buying Girl Scout cookies.

Also, the rules posted on that website are no longer on the books. They were repealed for First Ammendment violations. They can only be "recomendations".

 

[Harry Callahan]

Sad day, some people lack compassion.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_8068001

redeye
Thank you for posting the link. I hope this ramper never sets foot on the property again.

 

[stoopidute442]

The family should have been handed the American flag folded as all Military personal KIA do. The fact that he was a border patrolman should have nothing to do with it. In fact, under the circumstances they should have given his family a Mexican flag to piss on and use as toilet paper.

 

[cactusflyer]

I'm appalled as well, but I've also thought about this report. Giving this ramper the benefit of not knowing the FULL story (I doubt this is a fictional one) it may have been of good intent. It MIGHT have been a ramper who had some concern of the flag. Notice that he gave it to the Honor Guard. Of course it could also be some ramper that was expressing an opinion as well, but I believe that there may have been a harmless intent. Only the one who actually did it can say.

That aside, why was the guy suspended? I haven't looked at a GOM since pre merger, but in almost 10 years at HP I have NEVER heard anything said about US flags and how to handle them.

I have to agree that this incident is appalling, BUT is it grounds for termination? Is it grounds for suspension? Since most of us were not there and did not witness the incident it really isn't fair to judge. The suspension doesn't surprise me because that is how "west" management "manages" their people. They react first and administer discipline quickly without much thought. If this person is a good employee with no other issues then a simple coach and council will set the expectations in place. That's why you pay union dues, they should step in and make sure that he isn't unfairly disciplined, especially if protocol for situations such as this one isn't even outlined in the GOM.

 

[beachboy]

Wait until they get a few smacks at the System Board of Adjustment level. Sometimes they screw up a termination case so bad it's not funny! The arbitrator would award in the unions favor hands down as managment didn't have their ducks in a row. Sometimes it's comes down to do you spend around 50K to take it that far? OR, take the person back and wait for the next move. This is not rocket science. The only effective termination is with the union being in the process the entire way with open communication.

 

[Travelpro72]

Though many in the USA may not know proper "flag protocol" I would think that the most dense of people would find it disrespectful to roll or crumple it up. I also would think that a person would have enough common sense to NOT hand a flag in that manner to a member of our armed forces. I mean really. I guess dragging it on the ground would be ok too? I don't care about who is nice or not, I find it disrespectful to the deceased along with the guard. Certainly not a good time to "not be thinking". WOW! ! :blink:

 

[Jester]

Did anyone hear about the ramper in phx that took the american flag off the casket of a slain border patrol agent and rolled it up in a ball and handed it to the honor guard in front of the cameras and others?

Hey, I was on the bag room couch sleeping when it happened so nobody be casting a jaundice eye towards me!

Keep telling you all, you can't fix dumb, at least, he wasn't lazy as he was taking the extra effort.

Simple rule, don't know what you are doing and there are others around who do know what they are doing... let them handle it. The ramper should have stopped the belt as the casket approached the ramp and get out of the way of the honor guard. One doesn't need to be a rocket surgeon to figure this one out. :blink:

We can't afford to hire the Best and Brightest of what society offers at 9 bucks an hour.

So Opines Jester.

 

[Awa Native]

Before we all jump to any conclusions or for that matter "convict" the guy before we all know the facts I think we should all stop and realize that first of all Matrix doesn't even know himself for a fact that this happened. If you read his post it starts out "did you hear". Now for those of us who have been working for the airlines long enough, we know not to believe anything unless you hear it from the "horses" mouth themself.

I just so happened to be working flight 421 on Jan 25th and I had a birds eye view of the whole procession as did my fellow co workers. We watched from begining to end and not one time did I or any of the other two see any disrepect of the flag taking place. They (the agents and the Phoenix police) drove up to the plane and eveyone was waiting to do their parts in making sure the fallen agent was taken care of respectfully. There was no family present as the family was waiting in El Paso when we arrived, along with the honor guard who happened to be holding the folded flag that was to be given to the family.

We had five of the Border Patrol agents on our flight escorting the casket back to El Paso, who also happened to be down on the tarmac in Phoenix showing their respects, and not one of them mentioned to us anything about a ramper being disrespectful with the flag. I had asked several questions to them about the process they go thru when a fallen officer dies and they said that everything we saw was protocol.

I had even taken pictures of the process myself while on the airplane, along with our First Officer, and neither one of us saw anything out of the ordinary. It was a very somber moment.

So before we all have ill feelings toward this ramper, maybe we should wait to hear exactly what happened from him, before we take the word of Matrix who again doesn't even know for sure himself since he was not present.

I would like to think that the majority of us are mature enough to know that there are always TWO sides to every story.