Horizon Destruction In Work?

[Bob Owens]

Why are Amfa mechanics AT ONE OF THE MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINES IN THE COUNTRY making less than mechanics at AA?

Nice try.

The most profitable airline?

Do you mean SWA?

No they make more than us. And yes they have AMFA.


Do you mean NWA?

No they make more than us too. And yes they have AMFA.

Normally in this industry the bigger the Airline the more you make. The goal of most mechanics was to get a job in one of the "Majors" because that's where the money was. However now that the biggest airline out there is AA, which is represented by the TWU thats no longer the case. Not only has the TWU managed to bring wages down they also lead the industry in cuts to benifits. These cuts are significant.
The loss of 5 holidays and holiday pay for the remaining five days that are recognized alone is the equivilent of nearly $4000 less in pay than under the old contract. Under the old contract we earned $7000 over the 10 holidays, we now only earn $3000 over those same 10 days. Thats like an additional $1.90 /hr paycut. So that puts us way below our closest comparable airline-the AMFA represented UAL.

The fact is that AMFAs track record has been of getting mechanics superior pay and benifits compared to comparable carriers, often even better than much larger carriers. I remember looking at the OZARK contract back in the eighties, it was the best in the industry and they were a tiny airline.

The TWU on the other hand does its disservice to nearly every classification of airline workers it represents. Lets look at some TWU represented airline workers.

Mechanics;

AA- enough said. TWU strikes again.

EAGLE- profitable airline-pays less than smaller Alaska. TWU strikes again.


Flight Attendants;

SWA- Profitable airline, pays lower than every other major airline-TWU strikes again.

Baggage Handlers;

Worldwide and Swissport- both profitable, pays at or just above minimum wage. When dues are deducted some members make less than minimum wage. TWU strikes again.

Fuelers.

Ogden; Years ago this was a premium job. Fuelers earned as much as mechanics. However the company was bought out, and with it came the TWU and lower wages. The TWU strikes again.


The fact is that at Alaska real wages and benifits have been increasing under AMFA since they ousted the IAM. The fact is that under the TWU our real wages and benifits have been in an overall decline for over 20 years. We have lost over 30% in just real wages alone. We may be ahead of Alaska at the moment but at least with AMFA they are going Forward, with the TWU we are stuck in Reverse.

 

[Superside]

Bob,
Nice post!
A swing and a miss, a swing and a miss, Another swing and a miss...how many
more before the TWU is OUT? :angry:

 

[j7915]

Nice try.

The most profitable airline?

Do you mean SWA?

No they make more than us. And yes they have AMFA.


Do you mean NWA?

No they make more than us too. And yes they have AMFA.

Normally in this industry the bigger the Airline the more you make. The goal of most mechanics was to get a job in one of the "Majors" because that's where the money was. However now that the biggest airline out there is AA, which is represented by the TWU thats no longer the case. Not only has the TWU managed to bring wages down they also lead the industry in cuts to benifits. These cuts are significant.
The loss of 5 holidays and holiday pay for the remaining five days that are recognized alone is the equivilent of nearly $4000 less in pay than under the old contract. Under the old contract we earned $7000 over the 10 holidays, we now only earn $3000 over those same 10 days. Thats like an additional $1.90 /hr paycut. So that puts us way below our closest comparable airline-the AMFA represented UAL.

The fact is that AMFAs track record has been of getting mechanics superior pay and benifits compared to comparable carriers, often even better than much larger carriers. I remember looking at the OZARK contract back in the eighties, it was the best in the industry and they were a tiny airline.

The TWU on the other hand does its disservice to nearly every classification of airline workers it represents. Lets look at some TWU represented airline workers.

Mechanics;

AA- enough said. TWU strikes again.

EAGLE- profitable airline-pays less than smaller Alaska. TWU strikes again.


Flight Attendants;

SWA- Profitable airline, pays lower than every other major airline-TWU strikes again.

Baggage Handlers;

Worldwide and Swissport- both profitable, pays at or just above minimum wage. When dues are deducted some members make less than minimum wage. TWU strikes again.

Fuelers.

Ogden; Years ago this was a premium job. Fuelers earned as much as mechanics. However the company was bought out, and with it came the TWU and lower wages. The TWU strikes again.


The fact is that at Alaska real wages and benifits have been increasing under AMFA since they ousted the IAM. The fact is that under the TWU our real wages and benifits have been in an overall decline for over 20 years. We have lost over 30% in just real wages alone. We may be ahead of Alaska at the moment but at least with AMFA they are going Forward, with the TWU we are stuck in Reverse.

Bob, Ozark is history, so are the other carriers AMFA represented then.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, Ozark is history, so are the other carriers AMFA represented then.

Yes Ozark is history, but while they were in business the AMFA represented workers recieved top pay and benifits, right up until they were bought out, then they recieved full credit for their seniority. AMFA did not give concessions.

Another defunct airline was PAN AM, but unlike OZARK, these guys were TWU. The TWU convinced these guys to give concession after concession until they were the lowest paid workers out there. As a result their lifetime earnings and pensions were greatly reduced and they had less years to put in at their next job. They, unlike the OZARK workers got ZERO credit towards seniority. All the concessions were successful at doing was dragging a few more years of dues for the TWU and give the executives who came and went, in rapid order, the opportunity to raid the pension fund and pocket million$ for themselves.

Who made out better?

Those who can not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them.


Regardless of how much we give back our fate as workers lie in the hands of AA management. We could work for free and management could still find a way to lose money. If AA can not pay us as much as their competitors then they will eventually go out of business anyway, like Pan Am. We have made management addicted to concessions instead of developing ingenuity. There will be no end to this as long as we keep saying "Ok, we will take the hit to save the company". There will be no end to this as long as the company keeps supplying or promising to supply more dues payers to the TWU. There will be no end to concessions as long as we have the TWU. The last twenty years proves this.

We need a union that will fight for us, and not for more dues payers at our expense.

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

Another defunct airline was PAN AM, but unlike OZARK, these guys were TWU. The TWU convinced these guys to give concession after concession until they were the lowest paid workers out there. As a result their lifetime earnings and pensions were greatly reduced and they had less years to put in at their next job. They, unlike the OZARK workers got ZERO credit towards seniority. All the concessions were successful at doing was dragging a few more years of dues for the TWU and give the executives who came and went, in rapid order, the opportunity to raid the pension fund and pocket million$ for themselves



Bob, Once again I ask, since you mentioned AMFA/Ozark, PanAm/TWU...........
Maybe you can answer for me and others here,

Where or what happened with AMFA protecting and standing up for the rights of the workers when BRANIFF filed bankruptcy?

TWU never bailed out on the members, with PAN AM, they stayed the course to ensure employee/members received their due compensation?

Maybe the difference could be................PANAM was much bigger, more employees
BRANIFF much smaller, less employees, WHat would be AMFAs gain if they would have stayed? But if, they bail, as happened, AMFA capitalized in much saved money?
Since you also mentioned "raid" the pension...............what did happen to the pension owed to those at BRANIFF?
But as you stated, TWU pocketed millions from the workforce at PAN AM, with AMFA being much smaller, with only, maybe 10,000? employees, not enough millions for AMFA to pocket? but by bailing out, they saved in the long run, lawyers, etc?

It was TWA/IAM who gave the OZARK workforce total Senority, not AMFA

 

[scorpian]

Another defunct airline was PAN AM, but unlike OZARK, these guys were TWU. The TWU convinced these guys to give concession after concession until they were the lowest paid workers out there. As a result their lifetime earnings and pensions were greatly reduced and they had less years to put in at their next job. They, unlike the OZARK workers got ZERO credit towards seniority. All the concessions were successful at doing was dragging a few more years of dues for the TWU and give the executives who came and went, in rapid order, the opportunity to raid the pension fund and pocket million$ for themselves



Bob, Once again I ask, since you mentioned AMFA/Ozark, PanAm/TWU...........
Maybe you can answer for me and others here,

Where or what happened with AMFA protecting and standing up for the rights of the workers when BRANIFF filed bankruptcy?

TWU never bailed out on the members, with PAN AM, they stayed the course to ensure employee/members received their due compensation?

Maybe the difference could be................PANAM was much bigger, more employees
BRANIFF much smaller, less employees, WHat would be AMFAs gain if they would have stayed? But if, they bail, as happened, AMFA capitalized in much saved money?
Since you also mentioned "raid" the pension...............what did happen to the pension owed to those at BRANIFF?
But as you stated, TWU pocketed millions from the workforce at PAN AM, with AMFA being much smaller, with only, maybe 10,000? employees, not enough millions for AMFA to pocket? but by bailing out, they saved in the long run, lawyers, etc?

It was TWA/IAM who gave the OZARK workforce total Senority, not AMFA

Speaking of senority, hows yours

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

MCI AFL-CIO,

The mechanics at BRANIFF 2 didn't have a pension. I believe all they had was the same 401k plan that we had at DALFORT. When BRANIFF 2 was sold off from DALFORT in 1989 they were working under the same IBT contract which had no pension. AMFA had just barely finished electing officers and was in the process of negoiating a new contract when BRANIFF 2 folded. Don't try to blame AMFA for the IBT contract they were working under.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, Once again I ask, since you mentioned AMFA/Ozark, PanAm/TWU...........
Maybe you can answer for me and others here,

Where or what happened with AMFA protecting and standing up for the rights of the workers when BRANIFF filed bankruptcy?

TWU never bailed out on the members, with PAN AM, they stayed the course to ensure employee/members received their due compensation?

Maybe the difference could be................PANAM was much bigger, more employees
BRANIFF much smaller, less employees, WHat would be AMFAs gain if they would have stayed? But if, they bail, as happened, AMFA capitalized in much saved money?
Since you also mentioned "raid" the pension...............what did happen to the pension owed to those at BRANIFF?
But as you stated, TWU pocketed millions from the workforce at PAN AM, with AMFA being much smaller, with only, maybe 10,000? employees, not enough millions for AMFA to pocket? but by bailing out, they saved in the long run, lawyers, etc?

It was TWA/IAM who gave the OZARK workforce total Senority, not AMFA

One again? I dont recall the first time you asked.

As far as the Branniff deal I dont know what happened there. We do have a mechanic who worked for Branniff and I'll have to ask. I know for a fact that the mechanic favors AMFA, and so does every single ex-Pan Am/TWU worker here at JFK.

TWU never bailed out? Thats not what the Pan Am workers say, how about the Ex-EAL workers that were TWU? How about us? They bailed out on us because it would have cost the Treasury more in legal fees to protect our contract, plus they would have had to make embarrassing revelations, than it was to just sell us out.

As far as the TWA/IAM giving Ozark their seniority as I heard it AMFA had a successorship clause. AMFA refused to yeild on it.TWA had to abide by it or the deal could not have gone though. Perhaps the IAM saw the opportunity to pick up a few more dues payers.

The TWA/IAM ageement also had a succesorship clause, however when faced with the possibility of a $700 million dollar underfunded pension liability the IAM waived it.

The IAM could have held out, but they chose not to, instead they chose to take their (or should I say your) chances in arbitration. As a result you got full senoirity in some stations, 25% in others and 4/10/01 in others.

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

[

Speaking of senority, hows yours

Thanks for asking Scorpion, MY senority, is fine, Im not worried, may I ask how is yours?

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

.

Don't try to blame AMFA for the IBT contract they were working under.


Princess...............Thank you. Once again, we see, AMFA working under another trade unions contract? How far back has AMFA been raiding?
My question was answered, Thank You Princess, but also raises another question? We are to beleive by reading responses on the BB that Its never AMFA's fault, but its always the former unions fault that AMFA raided and had to live by the previous contracts, how many actual contracts has AMFA negotiated for its members at a major airline?

 

[TWU informer]

Once again "AMFA" is NOT RAIDING any airline.

UNION MEMBERS of worthless afl-cio unions have had their fill of concessions and want out!

What part of "ENOUGH" do you not understand?

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

?

Once again "AMFA" is NOT RAIDING any airline.

UNION MEMBERS of worthless afl-cio unions have had their fill of concessions and want out!

What part of "ENOUGH" do you not understand?




TWU Informer, It is my opinion, that anytime another organization attempts to overtake another organization that is presently representing members, That is "raiding"

Why is that AMFA only attempts takeovers at airlines that are threatening BK or massive layoffs?

"ENOUGH"..............I thoroughly understand "ENOUGH" and with that I ask, What part of "ENOUGH" does AMFA not understand?

 

[Buck]

How many times has American attempted bankruptcy?

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

MCI AFL-CIO,

AMFA didn't raid BRANIFF 2. Once the airline was separated from the overhaul base(DALFORT) there was no more IBT dumbasses to hold back the AMFA drive. DALFORT stayed with the IBT and the wages there got worse and worse. I'm not even sure they are still in business. Oh yeah by the way BRANIFF/DALFORT was originally represented by the IAM, until a "RAID" by the IBT kicked them out! This raid by the IBT was supported(financed) by the company. The IAM had a lawsuit against the company(remnants of BRANIFF 1) saying the old contract with BRANIFF was still in effect. If the IAM had won this lawsuit, wages would have gone back to prebankruptcy levels. As the result of this IBT "raid", the lawsuit was abandoned and the rest is history. Many mechanics there were mad at the IAM and also angry at the "GANGSTERS". The anger was so great that we got enough AMFA cards to have election. Unfortunately due to IBT lies,threats and imtimidation, we came up a little short and of course DALFORT went on to further and further decay. In my earlier post I said BRANIFF 2 was working under the IBT when it got split from DALFORT. I may have been wrong about that and BRANIFF 2 mechanic's may have had no union or contract,until AMFA was brought in.