how is your local handlingthe rejected T/A

[eolesen]

You are taliking in circles and contradicting yourself, if I have $10, five in my left pocket and five in my right and I move the five from my left into my right I still only have $10.

Not sweetening the pot means not adding anything.

No, they'll gladly add things; it just requires taking something else away. As long as the value works out to be the same, you can have 30% raises, but it will require 30% layoffs to get there.

 

[Hopeful]

No, they'll gladly add things; it just requires taking something else away. As long as the value works out to be the same, you can have 30% raises, but it will require 30% layoffs to get there.

Had the company laid off in 2003 and shrunk a bit, they would have not had to deal with a major morale problem. Those left on the payroll would have remained a happy bunch. those that would have unfortunatley been furloughed would have gradually returned back to work. And they would have returned back to work with a much better package.
Forty years of gains were taken away in 2003 and like beggars, we have to renegotiate and fight to get back each item as if it were the first time.
Why should we have to give back anything that was taken way years ago?
The company is not used to a NO vote and especially one of this margin.
Simply trying to pacify TULE will not be that easy this time.

Thanks to Brundage's asinine comment, he may have very well invited a problem that will affect AA's operation and ultimately the passengers.

 

[ReadyNow]

Heres are the TAs Side by side for line mech working days for 7/1/12 when both would be topped out;
AATA CALTA
Base 28.86 31.17
Line 2.55 .50
License 5.00 4.25
Long 0 1.00
Taxi 0 1.00
Total $36.41 $37.92

As you can see CAL would be getting $1.50/hr more however this would not trigger the Wage Opener provision because our MRT, (which would only be on paper since we shortened the window) would put our pay for comparasion purposes at $37.93 and the formula does not recognize Longeivity and Taxi premiums. So the company would claim we are making $37.93 while they are making $35.92.

The premiums that they would most likely be getting would not be counted while the premiums we most likely would not be getting would be counted.

So much for maintaining industry standard at number 2.

Make this TA your counter to the company - lock stock and barrell...or pick any other CBA and make that your offer.

 

[Bob Owens]

Make this TA your counter to the company - lock stock and barrell...or pick any other CBA and make that your offer.

The 2001 ratified CBA with the proper modifications should do nicely. We could be done in a week if the committee, the International and the company agreed.

The TA can not be tweaked, it has all the 2003 pre-bankruptcy concessions along with scores more.

 

[ReadyNow]

Had the company laid off in 2003 and shrunk a bit, they would have not had to deal with a major morale problem.

Try this on: Propose to the company - give us the 2001 contract - +retro and whatever else you want money wise.....then tell them you will accept any other airlines/UPS/Fedex work rules......

That will cause layoffs, but you will have a better place for those left and when the others come back...

This would be a game changer.....think out of the box

If your goal is job preservation - then you get less money...If you goal is more pay.....relax the work rules and job security......You will earn your job security every day with your wonderful performance - which people claim can be turned on with more money...

 

[Bob Owens]

Try this on: Propose to the company - give us the 2001 contract - +retro and whatever else you want money wise.....then tell them you will accept any other airlines/UPS/Fedex work rules......

That will cause layoffs, but you will have a better place for those left and when the others come back...

No it wouldnt. The company currently has over 1000 mechanics on payroll that they could layoff if they wanted to, there is nothing contractually that makes them keep these 1000+ workers yet they do because doing work in house may drive up labor costs but it saves money in other places.

If your goal is job preservation - then you get less money...If you goal is more pay.....relax the work rules and job security......You will earn your job security every day with your wonderful performance - which people claim can be turned on with more money...

Well we gave up 25% of our pay and agreed to allow inflation to lower our real pay 15% on top of that and we lost over 4000 jobs as well. We didnt preserve jobs by working for less. basically those are the companys false terms, they get the paycuts then they eliminate the jobs as they see fit anyhow. We dont have to simply agree to their terms, thats why we form unions, so the terms are negotiable.

 

[ReadyNow]

No it wouldnt. The company currently has over 1000 mechanics on payroll that they could layoff if they wanted to, there is nothing contractually that makes them keep these 1000+ workers yet they do because doing work in house may drive up labor costs but it saves money in other places.




Well we gave up 25% of our pay and agreed to allow inflation to lower our real pay 15% on top of that and we lost over 4000 jobs as well. we didnt preserve jobs by working for less.

OK.....I predict in 2012 you will be still discussing this issue and still working under the 2003 contract.......Going to AMP will put you into the old APA mode - hard line - confrontational - billboards - then in 3 years - maybe 2014, they will vote in new AMP leadership who will get realistic....Learn from APA - avoid their mistakes.....If AMP gains traction - NMB will wait till the dust settles and AMP goes thru a new round with AMR before impasse....sounds llike 2013 or 14 to me.

Good luck!

 

[Frank Szabo]

OK.....I predict in 2012 you will be still discussing this issue and still working under the 2003 contract.......Going to AMP will put you into the old APA mode - hard line - confrontational - billboards - then in 3 years - maybe 2014, they will vote in new AMP leadership who will get realistic....Learn from APA - avoid their mistakes.....If AMP gains traction - NMB will wait till the dust settles and AMP goes thru a new round with AMR before impasse....sounds llike 2013 or 14 to me.

Good luck!

You're presenting the situation as something it is not. I believe, by the NMB's own rules, negotiations stop until any representational question before them is settled.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Hope AA has the retro money saved up... 2014 at approx 8K per year. I can wait for the 50K 😉

 

[Frank Szabo]

No, they'll gladly add things; it just requires taking something else away. As long as the value works out to be the same, you can have 30% raises, but it will require 30% layoffs to get there.

I'd gladly let them lay off or otherwise show the door to the Centrepork sixth floor infestation - think that'll save enough money to suit the devils?

 

[ReadyNow]

You're presenting the situation as something it is not. I believe, by the NMB's own rules, negotiations stop until any representational question before them is settled.

How bout this timeline:

AMP drives moves forward - no real negotiations pending drive success or failure
Spring 2011 - Drive Success! - Vote set for June 2011
AMP passes and is now new union July 2011
AMP organizes builds cash and gets pro negotiaors to table - Nov 2011
AMR sees AMP going hardline and starts 18 month clock to outsource (see NWA)
AMP demands retstore and more - AMR counters - back and forth for 2012
2013 - AMR is now 3 months away from outsource plan and goes hard line - now wanting an impasse too
July 2013 - Impasse - PEB steps in and forces settlement that looks alot like current TA
OR - AMP strikes or AMR locksout and you look a lot like NWA....

OR

Base maint gets sold and carved up and everyone can reapply for their old jobs with the new company

OR -

Airlines return to massive profitablity in 2011 and AMR caves and gives you all you want in 2012

OR

TWU gets tossed - AMP doesn't get in and their is no union and you start to look like Delta.....(not a bad thing - at lease you save union dues and have one less outfilt to complain about)

Would be interesting to hear how others see this playing out...

 

[Duke787]

Heres are the TAs Side by side for line mech working days for 7/1/12 when both would be topped out;
AATA CALTA
Base 28.86 31.17
Line 2.55 .50
License 5.00 4.25
Long 0 1.00
Taxi 0 1.00
Total $36.41 $37.92

As you can see CAL would be getting $1.50/hr more however this would not trigger the Wage Opener provision because our MRT, (which would only be on paper since we shortened the window) would put our pay for comparasion purposes at $37.93 and the formula does not recognize Longeivity and Taxi premiums. So the company would claim we are making $37.93 while they are making $35.92.

The premiums that they would most likely be getting would not be counted while the premiums we most likely would not be getting would be counted.

So much for maintaining industry standard at number 2.

The CAL A&P doing OH would be earning around $2.50/hr more than the AA OH A&P. The CAL A&P in OH would be earning around $8/hr more than a topped out SMA doing the same work.

Vacation-
- after 5 years CAL gets 5 more days per year on all steps.


Pension-
CAL =DB, everything including OT is pensionable.
AA=DB only regular earnings pensionable, first year excluded from formula.

Sick sime
CAL 12 days per year
AA 8 days per year

IOD Time
CAL accrue up to 700 hours
AA 80 hours

When UAL went to bankruptcy they did away with the DB for their employees. In the new CAL TA, did the UAL employees get a DB?

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip
TWU gets tossed - AMP doesn't get in and their is no union and you start to look like Delta.....(not a bad thing - at lease you save union dues and have one less outfilt to complain about)

Would be interesting to hear how others see this playing out...

Assuming the new voting rules of the NMB apply to us (as many pro-corporate posters have said will not), that would definitely be interesting with the ballot choices reading AMP, TWU, and No Representation.

The downside of "no rep" is the salaried mid-management personnel immediately attempting to settle old scores by firing otherwise good people. Otherwise, we could all get an old-fashioned screwing straight from the company itself without the additional cost of the middlemen (paying union dues) that, in my 20+ years at American, have done nothing but tell us to give back pay and benefits other employees before us have fought to secure over the years while all the time collecting more and more off our backs.

 

[ReadyNow]

Assuming the new voting rules of the NMB apply to us (as many pro-corporate posters have said will not), that would definitely be interesting with the ballot choices reading AMP, TWU, and No Representation.

The downside of "no rep" is the salaried mid-management personnel immediately attempting to settle old scores by firing otherwise good people. Otherwise, we could all get an old-fashioned screwing straight from the company itself without the additional cost of the middlemen (paying union dues) that, in my 20+ years at American, have done nothing but tell us to give back pay and benefits other employees before us have fought to secure over the years while all the time collecting more and more off our backs.

Maybe in small companies people can get fired with no cause - big companies have so many HR rules and fear wrongful termination suits that unwarranted firings is not a realistic possibiity. Delta Tech Ops can restructure work groups, promote based on merit, form "all star" teams for special projects. Give the most challenging work/overtime to the best people vice the most senior, use the concept of working leads.....Slugs are not protected (but then no one here claims they should be)

 

[787nightmare]

Maybe in small companies people can get fired with no cause - big companies have so many HR rules and fear wrongful termination suits that unwarranted firings is not a realistic possibiity. Delta Tech Ops can restructure work groups, promote based on merit, form "all star" teams for special projects. Give the most challenging work/overtime to the best people vice the most senior, use the concept of working leads.....Slugs are not protected (but then no one here claims they should be)

You're kiddin yourself pal. It's easier than you think to get terminated from a non-union carrier.
All a Supervisor has to do is be the onethat the unsuspecting employee isn't careful enough around, and said Supv starts watching and compiling paperwork, and it's a done deal. Especially...in Oklahoma! And don't forget about the old "lay off" tactic...

I've worked union and I have worked non-union carriers. I will take union any day over non-union good ol boy workplace!
And yes, even TWU or IAM is better than nothing. But not by a lot... 😉