Anyone know how many more flights could be added in CLT with the current gate space if the need to dehub PIT becomes reality? It would open up a lot more conx possibilities if many of the PIT flights were moved to CLT with some for NE conx moved to PHL. I know at one time there was talk of building CLT up to be much bigger. Maybe now would be the time to try continual hubbing there with many of the PIT flights moved there. With the code share thing going now too, how hard would it be to do some non US hub flying such as ERI-ORD or TOL-IAD with code share offerings on routes not currently served by UA express flights?
How to Best Answer the US Airways Demands!
- Thread starter tadjr
- Start date
There seems to be no question that US Airways is playing take it or leave it hardball with Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Philadelphia, and Pennsylvania. Actually, take it or we''ll leave it is probably a more idiomatically accurate description of their management''s discussions with County Executive Jim Roddey and Governor Ed Rendell.
The airline is emerging from chapter 11 bankruptcy and after winning major concessions from its employees, while at the same time authorizing big bonuses for it''s top executives, it now wants big time financial gifts from the state''s taxpayers.
It wants 659 million dollars in airport improvements, rent relief, tax breaks, and other grants from the Allegheny County and Philadelphia airport authorities and from the state government. Pittsburgh International Airport improvements alone, total 155 million.
Lurking in the background is US Airways threat to leave Pittsburgh International Airport as a hub and locate their Mid-Atlantic base in Charlotte, North Carolina. This game of playing one city against another is similar to which professional sports franchise owners have engaged in for years.
Another threat is that we probably would lose some or all of the 9,000 US Airways jobs in this region and statewide.
Pittsburgh International Airport was built 11 years ago, primarily to accommodate its major tenant, US Airways current and future growth. The airport was designed to handle 30 million passengers per year. Unfortunately, the terrorist attacks on 9-11 have upended the entire airline industry. Air traffic is down and so are revenues. As a result, last year our airport traffic was down to just 18 million passengers. While remaining a hub airport is vitally important to this region, it raises the question -- at what price?
In our opinion, now is the time for Pennsylvania''s political to join forces and deal realistically with US Airways demands. County Executive Roddey, Governor Rendell, other leaders in Harrisburg, and, our elected members of Congress, particularly Senators Arlen Spector and Rick Santorum, must address their demands as a united front - with a single voice of resolve.
Meanwhile we''re encouraged that airport officials have begun to initiate overtures with Southwest Airlines and others as backup insurance. It''s an overdue effort which we hope reaps more options for heretofore monopolized Pittsburgh travel victims!
At the same time it gives our political negotiators the chutzpah, as a last resort, to tell US Airways management to: take it --- or leave it!
Robert W. Dickey
President
KQV Newsradio
The airline is emerging from chapter 11 bankruptcy and after winning major concessions from its employees, while at the same time authorizing big bonuses for it''s top executives, it now wants big time financial gifts from the state''s taxpayers.
It wants 659 million dollars in airport improvements, rent relief, tax breaks, and other grants from the Allegheny County and Philadelphia airport authorities and from the state government. Pittsburgh International Airport improvements alone, total 155 million.
Lurking in the background is US Airways threat to leave Pittsburgh International Airport as a hub and locate their Mid-Atlantic base in Charlotte, North Carolina. This game of playing one city against another is similar to which professional sports franchise owners have engaged in for years.
Another threat is that we probably would lose some or all of the 9,000 US Airways jobs in this region and statewide.
Pittsburgh International Airport was built 11 years ago, primarily to accommodate its major tenant, US Airways current and future growth. The airport was designed to handle 30 million passengers per year. Unfortunately, the terrorist attacks on 9-11 have upended the entire airline industry. Air traffic is down and so are revenues. As a result, last year our airport traffic was down to just 18 million passengers. While remaining a hub airport is vitally important to this region, it raises the question -- at what price?
In our opinion, now is the time for Pennsylvania''s political to join forces and deal realistically with US Airways demands. County Executive Roddey, Governor Rendell, other leaders in Harrisburg, and, our elected members of Congress, particularly Senators Arlen Spector and Rick Santorum, must address their demands as a united front - with a single voice of resolve.
Meanwhile we''re encouraged that airport officials have begun to initiate overtures with Southwest Airlines and others as backup insurance. It''s an overdue effort which we hope reaps more options for heretofore monopolized Pittsburgh travel victims!
At the same time it gives our political negotiators the chutzpah, as a last resort, to tell US Airways management to: take it --- or leave it!
Robert W. Dickey
President
KQV Newsradio
Dea Certe
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 889
- 0
Interesting editorial. No one knows better than the employees of US Airways current managements negotiation style. Perhaps the Daves think being the biggest employer left in the ''burgh gives them more clout. On the other hand, why should the good people of Pittsburgh have a gun held to their heads? It''s time to call the bullies bluff.
As much as I love PIT, I''m afraid I have to agree. Many employees have survived base/stations closures in the past and I''m sure we will again. It would be costly for the company, having to pay the relocation expenses involved but if management deems that less expensive than operations in PIT, it will be done.
Has there been much interest shown by other carriers? It''s a wonderful facility but the problem has been the O & D traffic, hasn''t it?
Luck to all of us!
Dea
As much as I love PIT, I''m afraid I have to agree. Many employees have survived base/stations closures in the past and I''m sure we will again. It would be costly for the company, having to pay the relocation expenses involved but if management deems that less expensive than operations in PIT, it will be done.
Has there been much interest shown by other carriers? It''s a wonderful facility but the problem has been the O & D traffic, hasn''t it?
Luck to all of us!
Dea
PITbull
Veteran
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On 4/28/2003 1:01:22 AM Dea Certe wrote:
Interesting editorial. No one knows better than the employees of US Airways current managements negotiation style. Perhaps the Daves think being the biggest employer left in the 'burgh gives them more clout. On the other hand, why should the good people of Pittsburgh have a gun held to their heads? It's time to call the bullies bluff.
As much as I love PIT, I'm afraid I have to agree. Many employees have survived base/stations closures in the past and I'm sure we will again. It would be costly for the company, having to pay the relocation expenses involved but if management deems that less expensive than operations in PIT, it will be done.
Has there been much interest shown by other carriers? It's a wonderful facility but the problem has been the O & D traffic, hasn't it?
Luck to all of us!
Dea
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Dea,On 4/28/2003 1:01:22 AM Dea Certe wrote:
Interesting editorial. No one knows better than the employees of US Airways current managements negotiation style. Perhaps the Daves think being the biggest employer left in the 'burgh gives them more clout. On the other hand, why should the good people of Pittsburgh have a gun held to their heads? It's time to call the bullies bluff.
As much as I love PIT, I'm afraid I have to agree. Many employees have survived base/stations closures in the past and I'm sure we will again. It would be costly for the company, having to pay the relocation expenses involved but if management deems that less expensive than operations in PIT, it will be done.
Has there been much interest shown by other carriers? It's a wonderful facility but the problem has been the O & D traffic, hasn't it?
Luck to all of us!
Dea
----------------
USAirways is not the biggest employer in Pittsburgh anymore. It hasn't been for a few years. The biggest employers are the teaching hospitals, specifically UPMC Health Systems.
The "gun" that is pointed at the communities head is that there is no real interest presently for another carrier to come in to PIT. Of course, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Perhaps these other carriers are waiting for U to decide whether to take a deal or not, and the minute they don't, another carrier will come into PIT and negotiate a good deal with the county. Part of me hopes that for the County. Have another carrier come in here just to show the airline Industry that there is "life" stirring after USAirways. Hell, another carrier would be smart to come in and incroach on U "franchise" East Coast monopoly. If U plays "hard ball" with the local and state officials with Pittsburgh, rest assured, it won't be looking good for them in PHL. PHL is a "hot spot" and there are other airlines that will love to tip toe into Us tulips in PHL and push U out.
As a U employee, I want to see U stay in PIT and keep their east coast monopoly. I also want to see the 9,000 jobs stay right where they are in "mainline".
Just as U and the unions have to reinvent themselves, so will Pittsburgh Allegheny County communities. They need to do whatever it is to ensure their survivability, and being a Resident of Pittsburgh my entire life, I particularly feel torn on where to place my loyalty.
I will say this, Gov. Rendall has some "trump cards", and I am sure as I'm sitting here, that he will use them... (PHL) if he has to to ensure an equitable deal for all parties. PHL happens to be the Mecca now, and I don't think it would behoove the Davies to exist both arenas.
Bottom line it this, for any other carrier to come into PIT, the County is STILL going to have to pony up something to attract them. The question should be, should they be willing to give US the same reduced rates that they will need to give a new entrant carrier?
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On 4/28/2003 9
22 AM Hope777 wrote:
Bottom line it this, for any other carrier to come into PIT, the County is STILL going to have to pony up something to attract them. The question should be, should they be willing to give US the same reduced rates that they will need to give a new entrant carrier?
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On 4/28/2003 9
22 AM Hope777 wrote: Bottom line it this, for any other carrier to come into PIT, the County is STILL going to have to pony up something to attract them. The question should be, should they be willing to give US the same reduced rates that they will need to give a new entrant carrier?
----------------
I think if Dave would have been honest during the BK and went to ACAA and said, "listen U will continue to operate out of PIT but we need your (ACAA) help reducing the cost structure". This would have probably been done.
Did the Daves do that? NO! 21 minutes before exiting BK is when the ball got dropped along with Roddey's jaw. Would you like to have this kind of sneaky maneuver done to you? I don't think so. As a long time U flyer living here in Pittsburgh, Winston-Salem, San Diego, Manhattan and Philly area, I have strictly flown USAirways. But now U doesn't have my loyalty anymore. To witness the backhanded way your management dealt with the employees and now where I live, I find this repulsive business tactics. I have also started flying the other airlines out of PIT more. Guess what? U is not that great after all. Sorry.
So I would not be surprised to see the ACAA giving gate space and anything else necessary away to attract more service and looking back and U and saying HA!
delldude
Veteran
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On 4/28/2003 9:52:03 AM trvlr64 wrote:
I think if Dave would have been honest during the BK and went to ACAA and said, "listen U will continue to operate out of PIT but we need your (ACAA) help reducing the cost structure". This would have probably been done.
Did the Daves do that? NO! 21 minutes before exiting BK is when the ball got dropped along with Roddey''s jaw. Would you like to have this kind of sneaky maneuver done to you? I don''t think so. As a long time U flyer living here in Pittsburgh, Winston-Salem, San Diego, Manhattan and Philly area, I have strictly flown USAirways. But now U doesn''t have my loyalty anymore. To witness the backhanded way your management dealt with the employees and now where I live, I find this repulsive business tactics. I have also started flying the other airlines out of PIT more. Guess what? U is not that great after all. Sorry.
So I would not be surprised to see the ACAA giving gate space and anything else necessary away to attract more service and looking back and U and saying HA!
----------------
did you know dave/dave tried to get CLT to reduce costs and they said "NO"?maybe that had a little to do with the ''left hook from nowhere''.On 4/28/2003 9:52:03 AM trvlr64 wrote:
I think if Dave would have been honest during the BK and went to ACAA and said, "listen U will continue to operate out of PIT but we need your (ACAA) help reducing the cost structure". This would have probably been done.
Did the Daves do that? NO! 21 minutes before exiting BK is when the ball got dropped along with Roddey''s jaw. Would you like to have this kind of sneaky maneuver done to you? I don''t think so. As a long time U flyer living here in Pittsburgh, Winston-Salem, San Diego, Manhattan and Philly area, I have strictly flown USAirways. But now U doesn''t have my loyalty anymore. To witness the backhanded way your management dealt with the employees and now where I live, I find this repulsive business tactics. I have also started flying the other airlines out of PIT more. Guess what? U is not that great after all. Sorry.
So I would not be surprised to see the ACAA giving gate space and anything else necessary away to attract more service and looking back and U and saying HA!
----------------
----------------
On 4/28/2003 10
00 AM delldude wrote:
did you know dave/dave tried to get CLT to reduce costs and they said "NO"?maybe that had a little to do with the ''left hook from nowhere''.
----------------
On 4/28/2003 10
00 AM delldude wrote: ----------------
On 4/28/2003 9:52:03 AM trvlr64 wrote:
I think if Dave would have been honest during the BK and went to ACAA and said, "listen U will continue to operate out of PIT but we need your (ACAA) help reducing the cost structure". This would have probably been done.
Did the Daves do that? NO! 21 minutes before exiting BK is when the ball got dropped along with Roddey''s jaw. Would you like to have this kind of sneaky maneuver done to you? I don''t think so. As a long time U flyer living here in Pittsburgh, Winston-Salem, San Diego, Manhattan and Philly area, I have strictly flown USAirways. But now U doesn''t have my loyalty anymore. To witness the backhanded way your management dealt with the employees and now where I live, I find this repulsive business tactics. I have also started flying the other airlines out of PIT more. Guess what? U is not that great after all. Sorry.
So I would not be surprised to see the ACAA giving gate space and anything else necessary away to attract more service and looking back and U and saying HA!
----------------
On 4/28/2003 9:52:03 AM trvlr64 wrote:
I think if Dave would have been honest during the BK and went to ACAA and said, "listen U will continue to operate out of PIT but we need your (ACAA) help reducing the cost structure". This would have probably been done.
Did the Daves do that? NO! 21 minutes before exiting BK is when the ball got dropped along with Roddey''s jaw. Would you like to have this kind of sneaky maneuver done to you? I don''t think so. As a long time U flyer living here in Pittsburgh, Winston-Salem, San Diego, Manhattan and Philly area, I have strictly flown USAirways. But now U doesn''t have my loyalty anymore. To witness the backhanded way your management dealt with the employees and now where I live, I find this repulsive business tactics. I have also started flying the other airlines out of PIT more. Guess what? U is not that great after all. Sorry.
So I would not be surprised to see the ACAA giving gate space and anything else necessary away to attract more service and looking back and U and saying HA!
----------------
did you know dave/dave tried to get CLT to reduce costs and they said "NO"?maybe that had a little to do with the ''left hook from nowhere''.
----------------
NO!? See that''s not being reported like the PIT mess is. But how can you get lower costs out of a supposedly lower cost structure facility like CLT? Do the Daves want CLT to be FREE!?
Dea Certe
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 889
- 0
trvlr64,
We are going to miss you but I can''t blame you for looking elsewhere. US hasn''t treated some of our most loyal customers very well. Are you a Cockroach, by any chance? I hope you''ll come back once we''ve sorted the mess out. Remember we are still the same employees who actually care that you have a good flight.
Pitbull,
I''m also torn by this. I hate to see PIT go away but a part of me wants to see someone put an end to the heavy-handed, take it or forget it negotiation style the Daves have used. I think the bluff needs to be called. It could get real ugly if Penn. just tells US to take its business elsewhere. It would certainly put the gun in different hands, wouldn''t it?
I think the "plan" has been to RJ PIT all along. Maybe keep a few Mainline flights but mostly RJ''s to serve the smaller communities in PA and Ohio.
Delldude,
Where did you get the info about CLT? I''d like to know more about that.
Dea
We are going to miss you but I can''t blame you for looking elsewhere. US hasn''t treated some of our most loyal customers very well. Are you a Cockroach, by any chance? I hope you''ll come back once we''ve sorted the mess out. Remember we are still the same employees who actually care that you have a good flight.
Pitbull,
I''m also torn by this. I hate to see PIT go away but a part of me wants to see someone put an end to the heavy-handed, take it or forget it negotiation style the Daves have used. I think the bluff needs to be called. It could get real ugly if Penn. just tells US to take its business elsewhere. It would certainly put the gun in different hands, wouldn''t it?
I think the "plan" has been to RJ PIT all along. Maybe keep a few Mainline flights but mostly RJ''s to serve the smaller communities in PA and Ohio.
Delldude,
Where did you get the info about CLT? I''d like to know more about that.
Dea
Dea Certe,
Delldude always has something against CLT. Look at this past postings relating to maintenance facilities. He has yet to answer the question of how this company derives so much more value from PIT that it is the financial best interest of the company to pay PIT $6.72 per passenger for $2.00 a passenger in CLT>
Delldude always has something against CLT. Look at this past postings relating to maintenance facilities. He has yet to answer the question of how this company derives so much more value from PIT that it is the financial best interest of the company to pay PIT $6.72 per passenger for $2.00 a passenger in CLT>
PITbull
Veteran
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On 4/28/2003 3:53:25 PM N628AU wrote:
Dea Certe,
Delldude always has something against CLT. Look at this past postings relating to maintenance facilities. He has yet to answer the question of how this company derives so much more value from PIT that it is the financial best interest of the company to pay PIT $6.72 per passenger for $2.00 a passenger in CLT>
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N6,On 4/28/2003 3:53:25 PM N628AU wrote:
Dea Certe,
Delldude always has something against CLT. Look at this past postings relating to maintenance facilities. He has yet to answer the question of how this company derives so much more value from PIT that it is the financial best interest of the company to pay PIT $6.72 per passenger for $2.00 a passenger in CLT>
----------------
Now answer who created that debt? Allegheny County? It was the old management from the early 90s that demanded allegheny county to build a new airport or they will exist. So, Allegheny County at the time was dealing with the demands of mangement and management did honor thier word. So the airport was built and the management kept their word. Now we have new mangement that is threatening to leave PIT and has terminated the leases leaving Allegheny County holding the "debt bag".
Dea Certe
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 889
- 0
Jet Mechanic,
Thanks for the answer. Could it be the Daves felt they had such a good bead on PIT they didn''t persue further with CLT?
Pitbull,
Well, it appears that the only contracts US honors are those of past executives, those who didn''t produce at that. Not a good precedent for the new US to be setting. This could have long term negative results for the company as a whole. Dang, it''s embarrassing.
Dea
Thanks for the answer. Could it be the Daves felt they had such a good bead on PIT they didn''t persue further with CLT?
Pitbull,
Well, it appears that the only contracts US honors are those of past executives, those who didn''t produce at that. Not a good precedent for the new US to be setting. This could have long term negative results for the company as a whole. Dang, it''s embarrassing.
Dea
Dea,
I''m not Dell, but I did read about this in the Charlotte Observer. I''m paraphrasing here, but the main idea was this: Jerry Orr, Charlotte Airport Director, was asked if he had been approached by USAirways to lower fees. He said he had and he turned around to say fees would be negotiated only if additional space was needed. He heard nothing further from USAirways.
I searched for the article online, but could not locate anything via Google.
It is my understanding that the fees are quite low compared to other airports.
Jet Mechanic
Delldude,
Where did you get the info about CLT? I''d like to know more about that.
Dea
----------------
I''m not Dell, but I did read about this in the Charlotte Observer. I''m paraphrasing here, but the main idea was this: Jerry Orr, Charlotte Airport Director, was asked if he had been approached by USAirways to lower fees. He said he had and he turned around to say fees would be negotiated only if additional space was needed. He heard nothing further from USAirways.
I searched for the article online, but could not locate anything via Google.
It is my understanding that the fees are quite low compared to other airports.
Jet Mechanic
Delldude,
Where did you get the info about CLT? I''d like to know more about that.
Dea
----------------
There was no way to refurbish the old terminal, it had been "reburbished" too many times. High costs at PIT are not US Airways problem, they are PIT's problem. If PIT wants to be competitive they must address them and come up with long term solutions, not blame somebody else (although that is the American way). Airports, just like every other business, must be competitive to survive. I say let PIT "bring in" another carrier at these high costs. Who do you suggest? NationsAir, AirTrain,the new PanAm...?
It's not your fight. Nothing you say or do will affect the outcome.
It's not your fight. Nothing you say or do will affect the outcome.
PITbull
Veteran
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On 4/28/2003 940 PM a320av8r wrote:
PITbull,
How quickly you forget just how awful the old terminal was. PIT needed a new facility or it would have ceased to exist. I don't understand why yunz are all taking this so personally. PIT has a choice, either be a cost competitive airport or cease to exist as a hub. Same choice U has, either be a cost competitive airline or cease to exist. U is working toward that goal. PIT can either get on board or stand aside. WN or any other "low cost" carrier will not come to PIT until it becomes "low cost" too to support their cost structure. PIT must reorganize, maybe CH11 for airports?
Truthfully, it ain't that great a place.
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A320,On 4/28/2003 9
40 PM a320av8r wrote:PITbull,
How quickly you forget just how awful the old terminal was. PIT needed a new facility or it would have ceased to exist. I don't understand why yunz are all taking this so personally. PIT has a choice, either be a cost competitive airport or cease to exist as a hub. Same choice U has, either be a cost competitive airline or cease to exist. U is working toward that goal. PIT can either get on board or stand aside. WN or any other "low cost" carrier will not come to PIT until it becomes "low cost" too to support their cost structure. PIT must reorganize, maybe CH11 for airports?
Truthfully, it ain't that great a place.
----------------
You just completely jumped over the point and went to a solution. Allegheny could have, like many other airports did, and referbish their old airiport. U Mangement insisted on a new airport and gave money to contribute to the building of this airport to meet U's spec.
Now, the community is in debt for this USAirways airport and U doesn't want it unless they have negotiated leases way down to about 25% from the 80% OF THEIR OWN CREATED DEBT. In addition, U wants $155 million worth of changes to pay for their Restructuring RJ Base plan, plus $255 million thrown over to PHL...IMO an impossible feat for PA. On top of that, U asked for $16 million dollars worth of tax relief...Are they crazy? Who could afford this ...the tax payers of PA, over 6% of the working class folks are unemployed in PA. PA has that to contend with as well. Frankly, if I was NOT an employee, I would be pressuring the County to remove U off the property and say bye-bye birdie....if I were a local official, I would bring in another carrier and throw them PHL gates as well. This would also save our communities in PA $155 million and $255 million plus the $16 million tax relief U seeks. I would give the new carrier, the lease relief, to the penny, that U seeks to any other carrier. Yup, that's what I would do. And then I would run for President of the United States...yes sir.
