Hypocrisy from TWU-ATD

[Hopeful]

Just seems to me that unions have become more problems than they are worth. Every thread I have read on this board seems to deride one union or another. Corrupt union leaders, leaders who do not do what their rank and file what. Considering that a huge majority of the US work force is underrepresented and we all seem to be getting by just fine (I have never had the need for one) and we do not have to pay a few hundred dollars a year either. Just does not see m like you are getting your monies worth to me.

Sure you get by fine, just do what the man tells you to do, wipe your nose, and get back to work!


Can you say ENRON and TYCO?

Can you say Kennie Boy Lay and Dennis $6000 Shower Curtain Kozlowski?

 

[Garfield1966]

Sure you get by fine, just do what the man tells you to do, wipe your nose, and get back to work!
Can you say ENRON and TYCO?

Can you say Kennie Boy Lay and Dennis $6000 Shower Curtain Kozlowski?

They pay my salary so they do get to make the rules. In nearly 20 years I have not been expected to do anything unreasonable. Not sure what your point is. BTW, I'm off the clock so I have no "work" that needs to be done.


How does ENRON or Tyco relate to the topic at hand?

 

[eolesen]

In nearly 20 years I have not been expected to do anything unreasonable.

Does being asked to take a voluntary pay cut in 2001 count?...

Then again, I was asked once by a managing director and L5 manager to knowingly violate software licensing. I refused, and still have hardcopies of those emails (if you're going to ask someone to violate corporate ethics, don't compound your stupidity and put it in an email...)

How does ENRON or Tyco relate to the topic at hand?

They don't. It's just more fun to pretend that AMR management is corrupt and evil, instead of being middle of the road as far as corporate governance and management go.

 

[Garfield1966]

Does being asked to take a voluntary pay cut in 2001 count?...

Given the economic conditions I did not think it was an unreasonable request. I did not like it but I did fell it was reasonable.

 

[Hopeful]

They pay my salary so they do get to make the rules. In nearly 20 years I have not been expected to do anything unreasonable. Not sure what your point is. BTW, I'm off the clock so I have no "work" that needs to be done.
How does ENRON or Tyco relate to the topic at hand?

You mentioned corrupt union leaders. What do you call these guys? Boy Scouts?

So the fact that they pay your salary gives them the right to make the rules illegally?

 

[Garfield1966]

You mentioned corrupt union leaders. What do you call these guys? Boy Scouts?

So the fact that they pay your salary gives them the right to make the rules illegally?

Ahh. I missed that correlation. I think the folks leading Tyco / Enron are a far cry from those working at AA but that is just my opinion. I was just making the point that given the corruption at unions (which you seem to agree exists) why bother having them? Seems like it’s more of a hassle than it’s worth give how little they seem to be doing for the workers lately. While you have to deal with your corrupt unions/leaders who you pay dues to as well as the “corruptâ€￾ AA execs, I only have to deal with the later while I get to keep the several hundred dollars in dues money in my pocket.

I did not think my pay cuts were obtained illegally. I was told my pay/benefits would be cut X% for my work group and it was. Very simple transaction. How was it illegal?

.

 

[Hackman]

FM hit it right on the head, company man or not. Every time the TWU does something you amfa fans are crying big time. Informer knew just what he was doing when he posted that article. He twists and contorts it to fit his "cause".

FM, don't know how long you've been around, but these amfa wannabes have been boo-hooing for years now. Ever since they lost their vote against the TWU they bi##ch and moan about every little thing. They'll bring up all kinds of allegations but bottom line....THEY LOST!!! It gets old really. Especially now that amfa has really proven themselves to be basically worthless. They don't want to admit they were wrong all along so they keep taking pot shots to bash the TWU. Have they mentioned they were in favor of BK at AA and eery where else?? That they were followers of the almighty Delle/McCormick (the real estate giants!!). Thousands upon thousands of jobs lost under amfa watch, work going over seas, pensions gone forever. But NOOOOOOO, they don't want to talk about amfa's faults. You notice they never did come back with a response when I put up facts about amfa and their practices.

Let them have their fun but luckily most of us here on this board are used to their antics.

Get ready....just sit back and watch it fly if you don't believe me!!
Let me help......so, how did you wannabes enjoy the Town Hall Meeting? Don't remember seeing many of you there. HMMM??? We had quite the turnout I thought. Maybe you can make the next one!!

Why is it no surprise a twu 514 goober would side with AA management? Will the twu finally do something besides lie down the compAAny bed billy? I can't wait!! The twu is going to DO SOMETHING!!! Call the press!!! The twu cowering is over!!!!

Let me type this real slow so even billy can understand it. What vote did the AMFA lose at AA? Did we have one? We didn't have one I seem to recall, because the twu was too scared they would lose. The company had to assist the worthless twu by lying to the NMB about class and craft. AA couldn't take the chance of losing their bought off company union whores.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A VOTE TO LOSE billy boob!!!! :blink: It really does get old refuting twu lie after twu lie.

The twu has lost thousands in layoffs also billdo. Have you taken a look at this in your twu fog? We have thousands of twu members on the street. Did you forget this billy? We understand. We have also had twu concessions for over 20 years, and it will continue as long as the twu sellouts are here.

The difference between the twu and AMFA is one fights for its membership and the profession (AMFA), and one cowers and continues to lower the bar (twu) with just a threat from management. The twu will never fight, and the toothless twu "Strike Snake" is its best motto...."Will Cower if Provoked". Its no surprise concessions will continously get worse with Jimmy Do-little (former AA management) at the helm of the rudderless twu International, and Gary "Dadgum" Yingst at the ATD post. Strange how this occured with twu contract "negotiations" looming on the horizon. The pension is about the only benefit we have left to give, and it will also be gone soon. The twu already gave the contract away, we were the first in the industry to lower the bar. No further ratification needed, right billy?

Town Hall meeting huh? You still go to those management BS sessions billy? Just can't swallow enough of the that management "expectorant" eh billy? Why is it the APA and the APFA have stopped all participation in the "Union Pajama Parties" after the $100 million PUP bonuses were handed out in April to management? However, the good 'ol twu continues to bend over like a cheap $3 whore? Is this "Pulling Together, To Win Together" billy boob?

You keep going to those meetings billy, you fit right in. :blink:

 

[Hopeful]

Ahh. I missed that correlation. I think the folks leading Tyco / Enron are a far cry from those working at AA but that is just my opinion. I was just making the point that given the corruption at unions (which you seem to agree exists) why bother having them? Seems like it’s more of a hassle than it’s worth give how little they seem to be doing for the workers lately. While you have to deal with your corrupt unions/leaders who you pay dues to as well as the “corruptâ€￾ AA execs, I only have to deal with the later while I get to keep the several hundred dollars in dues money in my pocket.

I did not think my pay cuts were obtained illegally. I was told my pay/benefits would be cut X% for my work group and it was. Very simple transaction. How was it illegal?

.

The upper union leadership are no different than the corporate fat cats. They appoint themsleves to positions that the membership cannot vote on. At least we can vote on local leadership and issues, and yes contracts.

As I said earlier, a primary benefit of unionism is the seniority issue. Lay offs, shift, vacation, and day off picks are based on this. True, when it comes to everyone seeing the same percentage wage increase regardless of a worker's experience and productivity, that is where the company needs to crack down on those individuals who lack in these two areas.

What if I become a maintenance supervisor? They give me a decent wage increase, decent days off and shifts. Everything is going good for a while. I do my job excellently and continually receive good ratings and reviews.
Now, a new manager transfers in, dislikes me personally and moves to screw me. He starts with the negative reviews, minimal or no increase in salary and ranks me at the bottom of the lot. Puts me on midnights with tuesday and wednesday off and someday only one day off hoping I will transfer out or resign. Being non union, I have no recourse. I will take the union over that corporate coulture any day.
This is exactly happened at JFK several years ago, a supervisor with 15 years was let go.

You cannot deny that this goes on in corporate America. My wife is a manager at a fortune 500 company and tells me of the corporate shenanigans and improprieties.

It is not a question of "I do my job, therefore I don't need a union!" It is a question when you are a good worker who gives a 110% everyday but fall victim to a superior who personally dislikes you.

One other union benefit:
NO SEX DISCRIMINATION IN WAGES!

 

[Oneflyer]

The upper union leadership are no different than the corporate fat cats. They appoint themsleves to positions that the membership cannot vote on. At least we can vote on local leadership and issues, and yes contracts.

As I said earlier, a primary benefit of unionism is the seniority issue. Lay offs, shift, vacation, and day off picks are based on this. True, when it comes to everyone seeing the same percentage wage increase regardless of a worker's experience and productivity, that is where the company needs to crack down on those individuals who lack in these two areas.

What if I become a maintenance supervisor? They give me a decent wage increase, decent days off and shifts. Everything is going good for a while. I do my job excellently and continually receive good ratings and reviews.
Now, a new manager transfers in, dislikes me personally and moves to screw me. He starts with the negative reviews, minimal or no increase in salary and ranks me at the bottom of the lot. Puts me on midnights with tuesday and wednesday off and someday only one day off hoping I will transfer out or resign. Being non union, I have no recourse. I will take the union over that corporate coulture any day.
This is exactly happened at JFK several years ago, a supervisor with 15 years was let go.

You cannot deny that this goes on in corporate America. My wife is a manager at a fortune 500 company and tells me of the corporate shenanigans and improprieties.

It is not a question of "I do my job, therefore I don't need a union!" It is a question when you are a good worker who gives a 110% everyday but fall victim to a superior who personally dislikes you.

One other union benefit:
NO SEX DISCRIMINATION IN WAGES!

I don't doubt that on occasion what you're suggesting happens, but it is very rare. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of riding the train, because you're afraid of a plane crash.

I had several managers at AA, some were better than others, but all were very fair. Did they sometime criticize me or give me a lower rating than I thought I deserved, sure, but looking back on it, they were right. 95% of the time that someone thinks their supervisor is treating them unfairly, its a personal problem, not a problem with the supervisor.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't doubt that on occasion what you're suggesting happens, but it is very rare. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of riding the train, because you're afraid of a plane crash.

I had several managers at AA, some were better than others, but all were very fair. Did they sometime criticize me or give me a lower rating than I thought I deserved, sure, but looking back on it, they were right. 95% of the time that someone thinks their supervisor is treating them unfairly, its a personal problem, not a problem with the supervisor.

Performance evaluations should not suffer because of personality.

 

[Oneflyer]

Performance evaluations should not suffer because of personality.

Sure they should. If you don't work and play well with others, your performance is going to suffer, especially in an office environment.

I just don't think performance evaluations are a biased as you think. At my current company, I get evaluated by 3 or 4 different people, which really limits the posibility of biased behavior.

American's performance appraisal is such that it makes it difficult to really cheat someone anyway. There are a lot of avenues to solve problems if they do come up.

 

[eolesen]

Performance evaluations should not suffer because of personality.

Why not? If you let a personality conflict interfere with how you do your job, then your performance suffers in the eyes of the person doing the evaluation. Bluntly, either you find a way of meeting your boss's expectations or you start looking another job.


No offense intended, but I don't think most pilots, flight attendants, clerks and most mechanics get that aspect of being in management, especially if they've never worked anywhere else but AA or another large company. They're for the most part interchangeable with anyone else with the same job title, and simply have more options for avoiding personality conflicts.

When you've got a couple clerks or pilots who don't get along, they tend to bid away from each other and avoid conflict. The last thing anyone wants is a pissing match in the cockpit at 35,000 ft, a catfight in the galley, or a boxing match in the belly of an MD80.

The fact that managers are held to a slightly higher standard, and are expected to work thru differences like that, shouldn't be all that shocking.

Something else that most people outside of management don't ever see... Performance evals are done online. I sign my employee's reviews first. They sign it second, and have a place to put in their comments. If they disagree with my assessment, they can write down their reasoning or opinion for the whole world to see, and I (rightfully) can't do a damn thing about it. If I knock them down on their next eval because of what they said on the previous eval, it's now retribution, which puts my job at risk.

So, while there's some degree of subjectiveness to the eval process, it's also mitigated somewhat by the way it gets recorded.

 

[Hackman]

I don't doubt that on occasion what you're suggesting happens, but it is very rare. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of riding the train, because you're afraid of a plane crash.

I had several managers at AA, some were better than others, but all were very fair. Did they sometime criticize me or give me a lower rating than I thought I deserved, sure, but looking back on it, they were right. 95% of the time that someone thinks their supervisor is treating them unfairly, its a personal problem, not a problem with the supervisor.

No, its not rare. Its very common at AA. I had one of the best managers I ever had years ago. He had the respect and admiration of his workers. He was a a great guy all around, a real people person who you really wanted to work for. His workers consistantly outperformed all the others. He was resented because of this by the other managers. So they back stabbed him and debased him at every turn because he didn't follow the adversarial AA management style. He finally had enough and resigned.

Now this is only one case, and I would bet its happened at Arrogant Airlines a lot more than I would hazzard to guess.

 

[Hopeful]

Sure they should. If you don't work and play well with others, your performance is going to suffer, especially in an office environment.

I just don't think performance evaluations are a biased as you think. At my current company, I get evaluated by 3 or 4 different people, which really limits the posibility of biased behavior.

American's performance appraisal is such that it makes it difficult to really cheat someone anyway. There are a lot of avenues to solve problems if they do come up.

You need to visit JFK maintenance mangagement group!

If the Director and Manager have it in for you......................ADIOS!

 

[Oneflyer]

You need to visit JFK maintenance mangagement group!

If the Director and Manager have it in for you......................ADIOS!

Having worked with numerous GMs and Cargo GMs I never found that to be the case. Granted, I never worked with maintenance or in the NE. The NE seems to be quite a bit more adversarial.

I will say that operations managers seemed to be much less open with their employees than HDQ managers. Ops also tends to be more stratified, it was routine for analyst to go to lunch with our VP, he knew my wife's name, other analysts kid's names and took an interest in our lives. I didn't see a whole lot of that in my trips into the field.