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Too bad your reading skills are lacking Sky...I said - from a coach class perspective. But you do bring up a good point...what if there are 17 elites on a flight? Doe's one get to ride the cockpit jumpseat?


...THAT'S RIGHT......That's the ONLY PERSPECTIVE you have, KCFlyer. COACH CLASS....and that goes for ALL THE WN FREQ. FLYERS.

Art mentioned agents in ISP by name. He's developed a relationship with EMPLOYEES who would go out of their way to fulfill Art's "preferences". A "Business select" ticket just doesnt do that.

What do I tell my elites in coach, the same seat a kettle gets? Why would I say anything other then, thank you for your business? They paid for coach.

What do you tell WN Freq. Flyers who want to redeem their miles for EUROPE, HAWAII, CENTRAL AMERICA, ASIA?????????????? I Know!!!......enjoy your trip to BOISE. LOL.
 
...THAT'S RIGHT......That's the ONLY PERSPECTIVE you have, KCFlyer. COACH CLASS....and that goes for ALL THE WN FREQ. FLYERS.

Art mentioned agents in ISP by name. He's developed a relationship with EMPLOYEES who would go out of their way to fulfill Art's "preferences". A "Business select" ticket just doesnt do that.

What do I tell my elites in coach, the same seat a kettle gets? Why would I say anything other then, thank you for your business? They paid for coach.

What do you tell WN Freq. Flyers who want to redeem their miles for EUROPE, HAWAII, CENTRAL AMERICA, ASIA?????????????? I Know!!!......enjoy your trip to BOISE. LOL.

Art has mentioned some by name. Other posters have mentioned encounters with employees who apparently didn't want their business.

If you only knew how many LUV employees I know, and what they have done to fulfill my preferences. If you only knew how many times a LUV employee who didn't know me from Adam but offered a little extra service. One time I recall a package I got in the mail. It was from Little Rock. I don't know anyone in Little Rock, but when I opened it, there was a tape of Southwest jingles from the past 30 years. It was from a reservation agent who read a letter that I wrote commending an employee. She said she thought I might enjoy it. She explained to me how Southwest routes all letters, good or bad, around the system. She saw mine, was touched, and did something nice for me.

But I digress... the US folks must be extra special to install a first class seat in an Express aircraft, since that's all that serves his airport and it's really his preference. If he wanted to fly from ISP to MCI...he gets TWO Express jets. No first class on either one. Maybe someone can take care of that for him as well.

You might want to ask Art what he paid for his ISP-MCO ticket - where he got the exit row. The ticket that was the absolute top dollar he would pay. I'll help - it was $553. Yes he only had a coach seat, albeit and exit row. But I took a look and if Art had a meeting in PHL and wanted to fly there and back from ISP, it would cost him $1563. Art gets 31" of seat pitch for that price. Fortunately, it's less than an hour flight time. Now....I think he has an issue with that. Perhaps someone there might fulfill THAT preference.

I ride Art sometimes about the FF perks, but you know something, if it cost me or my company that much money for a couple hours on a barbie jet, I'd be kind of ticked off too. If those are the kinds of prices he's been paying US, then you damn well better welcome him aboard. You damn well better start service to Tahiti if he wants to use his miles there.

I think, if it came right down to it, Art wasn't totally dissatisfied with his Southwest experience. I haven't read where Art routinely cashes in his miles to go to Europe, Hawaii, Central America or Asia. But I don't think at the time he made his MCO trip that he was concerned about getting to Europe...he was concerned about getting to Orlando...safely, comfortably, on time and for a fair price. I believe what he got was a superior coach product than what US offers.

As for flying first class...the beauty of living in the heart of America is that you're not that far from any other point in the US...certainly not far enough to warrant paying for a first class seat. But I can assure you that I've flown my share of flights up in the F cabin. My thing was, I never thought I was any better than the folks on the other side of the curtain.
 
Howdy all, I had been wanting to chime in but I have been tied up pretty much all week in the DFW Metroplexus....teaching a seminar in Leadership & Management for the mid level mgmt of a successful drilling company. Isn't it a pity that USAirways won't retain me to teach their upper level management something about how to treat their subordinates?

At any rate, I wanted to commend Art for his candor and for actually breaking down and flying WN. I am not a WN employee but the company is near and dear to my heart for many reasons and I like to see them continue to be successful. The way to be successful is to continue to provide value, a good product at a fair price.

It would have been easy for Art to have come back and said it was the most wretched experience of his entire life and that he had been right all along. But if you read his post, that isn't at all what he said. He was honest....maybe brutally honest....and if you read between the lines it almost seemed like he was semi-impressed.

Art, you may not know it, but you saw the WN experience under what pretty much constitutes the greatest stress. A full boat both ways to Orlando, of all places.....not the most business oriented destination in the system. Throw bad east coast weather in on the return and the opportunity for lots of things to go wrong were present.

Art, you mentioned something but I don't know if you really caught the deeper meaning underlying something that happened. You recall when you said something about the Ops Agent telling you they normally took the preboards first - but since there were 6 wheelchairs and only two BS.....they kind of infiltrated you guys first? That's normal for WN. They allow their employees to think and act in what is in the best interests of the passenger and the company based upon the situation. It is sort of a power-down philosophy of management that allows employees on the front line to do the right thing instead of doing things right. Some might argue that is a lack of consistency, but I would suggest to you that giving your employees room to make decisions without fear of retribution is one of the things that makes WN employees loyal and productive. Similar situations with me have been when I hold a reservation on the 7 o'clock and show up at 4:30.....rather than pay to upgrade, I just tell the agent that if they are worried about later oversales I am available to go early if there is space. More often than not I get handed a boarding pass and told to git r done. (Or get on the flight....they usually only say git r done in MAF or LBB)

What Art got (from reading his post) were on time and comfortable flights with reasonably attentive cabin attendants on clean aircraft with decent legroom at a very reasonable and fully refundable walk up fare. That is far from the worst thing that can happen to someone.

KC, avoid the temptation to chide Art for his preference for assigned seats. For some it is a difficult addiction to give up....sort of like when I quit chewing tobacco. It is perfectly okay for Art to prefer to have an assigned seat and it is well within the normal realm of human nature to enjoy being treated special as a valued and long term customer. The fact that Art tried WN and spoke fairly favorably of the whole experience speaks VOLUMES.

We're not all the same. People like different things. People have their own favorite TV shows, magazines (my favorite is National Review), and favorite airlines. That's okay. It isn;t a one size fits all world. It is still a free country, more or less, and probably will continue to be a free country until the blasted democrats seize power. (Then all bets are off)

Art is very much like you were, KC, as you "converted". You absolutely hated the idea of flying WN instead of BN and thought you would die. But you didn't. And over time, you grew fond of the idea of getting your money's worth, flight after flight, and doing business with a company dedicated to treating its employees and passengers well while charging fair prices and making money. It also helped that you ended up in MCI and enjoyed the surfeit of nonstops that you could choose from.

Art, please tell me you signed up for Rapid Rewards. Those Business Select seats you bought got you (or will still get you) 2 credits each way....so you have four. You are 1/4th of the way to a free round trip.....1/8th of the way to being an "A List" passenger and 1/25th of the way to a Companion Pass....which would allow you to take Mrs Art (or Piney Bob's girlfriend in the event there is no Mrs Art) along with you for a year at no charge. It might not be Tahiti and it might not be First Class but it isn't chopped liver either.

Evolving from WN hater to WN tolerance to WN aficionado is not an overnight process. Just as amoebas did not emerge from the primordial muck and immediately become dinosaurs...these things take time. Since ARt was candid and honest, I think it fair to assume he will be intellectually honest with himself, too.....and as USHP continues to devalue their FF program, screw their employees, and charge fares that demonstrate neither rhyme nor reason....the folks with the ugly planes and unassigned seats start to look like a much more attractive option.

USHP and all the legacies try and treat their high mile FF passengers like visiting royalty (sometimes they succeed but more and more often they don't) but they have begun to treat their ordinary Joes in the main cabin (ir steerage) like garbage. The problem with WN is not that they don't treat their passengers well....they do. It's simply that they don't treat anyone as if they are any more special than anyone else. Once you can come to grips with the egalitarianism, the conversion to WN fan will be complete.

Art, hate to say this, Hoss.....but you'll eventually become one of us. It's sort of like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" and the Flight Attendant had put one of those pod things in your carry on bag. But it's okay. Eventually you grow to like it.

But more than anything I found your honesty and candor refreshing, honest, and admirable. Too bad the head honchos down in Phoenix lack your honesty.

That's it for now. Remember to keep your seat belt fastened until we've come to a complete stop at the gare and the Captain has turned out the fasten seat belt sign.
 
Tex....I'm not chiding Art. Apparently Art is used to first class, at least on flights other than into and out of ISP. I am only pointing out the "coach" experience. Business select passengers have the best shot at snagging an exit row...just as "elites" on other airlines have the best chance of snagging an exit row on their airlines of choice. Art implied that boarding in the A group would be substantially different that business select - just pointing out that it wouldn't - outside of the fact that the chances of an exit row are a bit smaller. I'm only asking him to compare the coach experience on Southwest to a coach experience on another airline. I still maintain that he got a superior coach product.

The rest of my post was directed at Sky High...who apparently forgets Art's biggest beef...$1,500 for a 300 mile round trip flight. Remember when Southwest flew longer roundtrips than that for $30? But to defer to Sky...yep, there's no first class cabin on Southwest. There also aren't any $1500 round trip coach tickets either. It's great to form a friendship with the local airport staff. But if the difference in airfares is a thousand dollars, pretty soon you'll find yourself waving at your friends as you board the competitions flight. WHile you won't get a free ticket to Asia, you can buy a first class ticket to Bangkok and back with spending money left over from what you'll save.
 
One other thing to think about regarding "Business Select" is if you are taking a "continuation flight" (one that has arrived from another city and will continue on to the next destination using the same flight number) those prime legroom seats may be already occupied by a "through passenger".
 
I'm only asking him to compare the coach experience on Southwest to a coach experience on another airline. I still maintain that he got a superior coach product.

..........another airline? here's another airline that competes from the NYC area.
Got TV on WN: http://www.jetblue.com/about/whyyoulllike/...TribuneTVFront/
how about 34 INCHES OF LEGROOM. Or the OPTION of having 38 INCHES.
They have snacks too!
And, how about 12 EMERG EXIT ROW SEATS, compared to 6 at WN: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Southwest...ing_737-500.php
according to Seatguru, alot of the exit row seats are questionable.
And, with a connection, you can find, July 15, fares EQUAL to and/or with connections to be CHEAPER then WN.

Was that the superior COACH flight you were talking about?
 
..........another airline? here's another airline that competes from the NYC area.
Got TV on WN: http://www.jetblue.com/about/whyyoulllike/...TribuneTVFront/
how about 34 INCHES OF LEGROOM. Or the OPTION of having 38 INCHES.
They have snacks too!
And, how about 12 EMERG EXIT ROW SEATS, compared to 6 at WN: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Southwest...ing_737-500.php
according to Seatguru, alot of the exit row seats are questionable.
And, with a connection, you can find, July 15, fares EQUAL to and/or with connections to be CHEAPER then WN.

Was that the superior COACH flight you were talking about?
Hmm...great. what about the other 138 folks who won't get the exit row? Jetblue has PTV...perfect, are TV sets the reason Art flew US? Oh wait...they don't have TV. I wonder if TV was Art's driving force in choosing an airline. Maybe not.

But I do agree with you, Jetblue also offers a superior coach product to US. In your effort to point out how Southwest doesn't have TV or 38 inch pitch on some rows, or only 6 (there really are 12 but 6 of them don't recline), you seem to be doing a great sales job for JetBlue. I guess it's a good thing for you that they still consider most of the middle US as "flyover country', because you might have lost Art or Piney as customers much sooner than you did.

But in your sales job for Jetblue, or anything against soutwest...may I point out a couple of things for you:

1. In flight beverages - SWA - complimentary, JetBlue - complimentary, US - for a fee

2. Checking a bag - SWA - complimentary, JetBlue - complimentary, US - for a fee

3. In flight snack - SWA - complimentary, JetBlue - Complimentary, US - not available

4. Personal TV - SWA - no, JetBlue - yes, US - no

5. Reasonable "business schedule" fares - SWA - yes, JetBlue - yes, US - you mean $1500 for a 300 mile round trip is not reasonable?

But isn't if funny how you can't argue that YOUR airlines coach product is superior to Southwests...you have to find some OTHER airline.
 
US - you mean $1500 for a 300 mile round trip is not reasonable?
$1500 for 300 miles reasonable? Heck No, that is Highway robbery. Take AMTRAK (Acela) alot nicer and fast. Beats the hassles of flying between Washington and Boston. That's sad, even the Governments Rail Service is a better product than US' best service.
 
Uh, I'm assuming that Art flies out of ISP because it is near his home. Wouldn't flying JB to get the seatback TV require a 45 mile drive inbound on the LIE? Personally, I would rather slit my wrists. There's a reason the LIRR still does a land office business. :lol:
 
Wow,

I never thought my change of heart would be the start of such a debate!

First of all, thank you for the kind words--greatly appreciated.

There is merit to much of what EACH of you say, however, let me clarify MY position on the matter.

I live 12 miles from ISP, and 38 miles from JFK, 36 from LGA-depending on which routes I take to get there. Of course, its a no brainer that I would prefer to use ISP, but the choices are fewer and fewer all the time as airlines pull out and routes are cut (WN notwithstanding).

Long ago in a galaxy far far away, I traveled almost exclusively on AA. This was the early 80's, and life was good for a FF. In fact, AA only had one elite level, Gold at the time.
As I changed jobs and the geography of places I needed to travel to changed, I moved to DL (AA did not yet have MIA developed). I remember DL only having one level of elite, called Medallion, and you got there by flying 40,000 miles! Somewhere I still have my Medallion card from 1989 or 1990. In those days I was a regular on the DL 1011 from JFK to FLL, and got to know crews and Crown Room folks very well.

Around 1999 I changed jobs again, to the one I currently hold. I stayed with DL for the first 6 months, making Gold Medallion in about 8 weeks. After a string of missteps with DL, I was "interviewing" new carriers. A DL flight cancelled, and after being rebooked on US, a billing issue arose which was handled by US not only promptly and professionally, but in a manner in which they offered me Gold or Preferred Plus for the rest of the year to try and win me over. It worked. I made Chairman's on my own for about 7 years running, and you all know the rest of the story, with our forming the "Cockroaches" which later morphed into FFOCUS.

Fast forward to today--my primary carriers are AA and CO as you know, and I do fly Jet Blue a little, and even tried Airtran (a mistake). As the airline business continues to change, so do my attitudes about certain carriers, as well as what is important to me...today, it's VALUE, CONVENIENCE, RELIABILITY, SPACE, and CUSTOMER SERVICE, in varying order depending on the individual circumstances.

I expect value for my money. I know fares are going up, frankly, they should have gone up long ago. There is no place in today's economy for the ridiculous $69-$99 one way fares to Florida, Vegas, or anywhere else. Fares SHOULD be based on what it costs to provide the service, not what the competition is doing. I am willing to pay a little more for flexibility, early boarding and other areas covered by Business Select.

What I will NOT pay is the usurious and ripoff fees which airlines continue to charge for short to medium business-heavy flights, where they feel they can charge what they want because people will pay. To me that is criminal. Gouge the business traveler because you're losing money elsewhere....No thank you. Fares still need to be FAIR--mind you not artificially low, but FAIR. I think WN excels at this. Add this to properly managing expectations, and the point goes to WN.

At the same time, I expect reliable service, and adequate customer service if and when something goes wrong. Now nothing went wrong with this trip, but I did notice a difference between how WN was handling some issues and B6 was (they are across from each other in MCO). Again, point goes to WN...although B6 was not bad, a little more finesse would have been in order in what I have seen, and to be fair it's not right to judge by ONE example.

I also expect convenience. Now here is where I had my only issue. My meeting ended early and I wanted to try to get on the 3:45 flight to ISP, rather than the 6:10 which had run late for three days prior. What I did not know was the 3:45 cancelled, so I wound up waiting on line for 45 minutes or so just to get a boarding pass. What I think they should consider is expanding Business Select to dedicated check in lines where and when able, with the agents filling in on regular lines when no BS customers are present. My time is valuable too, and I thought this was the most disappointing point of the trip, although you were all kind enough to suggest workarounds.

Reliability speaks for itself in this case, however, I think WN has a very reliable operation, and it was enhanced in my perception even further by operating on time to ISP while JFK and LGA were ALL being delayed by ATC (I know it's not WN's issue but it still matters in the general scheme of things).

Space is most important to me once on board. I am used to flying in F, which in some cases is nothing more than a larger seat (US). That said, I have done long flights on CO in the exit rows on 737's and have been perfectly happy. The exit rows on WN are just fine, as long as I can get one, and it did appear that most of the other seats had more room than many others. B6 has good legroom as well, with the minimum being 34 inches, and their exit rows are great too but you have to pay for them now (another issue for another day). Also with space it is important to me to be an early boarder, because I carry on, and do not want to deal with gate checking. Interestingly enough, on two full flights, there were no carryon issues--and that was a first!

So I can be flexible, and I hope this explains what matters to me. I do believe there will be occasions for me to fly WN again, and I will remain open to it if it makes sense.

That said, I still PREFER assigned seating and F class where possible, and my experience with WN has done nothing to change that opinion.

I am trying to be objective and look at the big picture, folks. I do not think I am being unreasonable for one who flies over 100K a year, and I am adjusting my expectations where necessary.

What I will NOT do is spend money with a company who does not treat its employees OR customers with respect, and that policy is not just limited to US Airways.

Thanks for listening and enjoy the weekend.
 
Art, I appreciate your candor. My posts were not meant to "chide" you about assigned seating, only to point out that any A group seat will allow you to pretty much get a decent seat. My issue was with Sky High, who seems to have no trouble dissing Southwest, but can't seem to come up with a compelling sales job for coach class service on his airline. Maybe to settle the question, I could ask your honest opinion in one question:

As of July 2008, which carrier provides the superior coach product - Southwest or USAirways?

On a side note, my jaw dropped when I saw the ISP-PHL round trip price. I realize that in the Northeast, train travel is often better than air travel, but still...$1500 for a 300 mile round trip flight?

Southwest pretty much started as a businessman's shuttle. Hourly flights between Dallas, Houston and San Antonio. Train travel is pretty much unheard of in Texas, and it's 240 miles between Dallas and Houston - even at Texas Interstate speeds, a driving trip to Houston for a business meeting is either a two day affair, or you are DEAD tired when you get back to Dallas. Southwest offered hourly flights for $15 each way. One could have breakfast before sending the kids off to school, catch a flight to Houston for a 9:30 meeting, take the client to lunch, finish up the meeting, and be home for dinner. For $30. That was in the 1970's, and when they started, that same trip would have cost you several hundred dollars on Braniff or Texas International (today's Continental). They still do it today, albeit the price is $122 - which is about a 5% annual increase over the years.

Along those lines, do you consider the fare you paid to go from ISP-MCO - which was the absolute highest fare that Southwest charges on that route - to be reasonable?

One last thing...in one of the many efforts to put WN out of business, Braniff started running flights for $13. The result was one of the best airline ads ever...Lamar Muse said "Nobody's going to shoot Southwest Airlines out of the sky for a lousy 13 bucks. So they made a deal - you either got a $13 fare, or paid the regular fare and got a free fifth of your favorite liquor. For a while, Southwest airlines was the biggest liquor distributor in Texas. Needless to say....Braniff lost.
 
KC you were pretty close...but let me set the historical facts straight for you.

First of all, you were exactly correct.....Southwest was established to be an airline designed for the business traveler. The intrastate service in Texas (Dallas-Houston-San Antonio) was a mixed bag in the late 60s/early 70s. Braniff (and to a lesser extent Texas Intl) used the Dallas-Houston or Dallas-San Antonio leg as a part of a longer one or two stop. Think HOU-DAL-MCI-ORD or SAT-DAL-LGA. The folks on the Texas leg would be climbing on a flight in Dallas, headed to Houston....which might have been delayed coming out of NYC with stewardesses who were tired and in a bad mood after having to deal with meal service for a bunch of picky damyankees.

The CAB one way fare between Dallas and Houston was $28 each way when Southwest inaugurated service at a one way fare of $20.

The $20 fare failed to generate any appreciable volume of new traffic. Southwest lost money. They made a decision to halt all flights on Saturdays and run only a limited Sunday schedule. They figured they would get the crews and planes back to Dallas for the weekend, so they started a flight from Houston to Dallas and from San Antonio to Dallas late on Friday evening where every seat sold for $10.

With no advertising...other than word of mouth.....within a month the last flight on Friday night coming in from Houston or San Antonio was bringing with it a full load of folks.

That caused Muse and his crew at WN to think about the marketplace. They decided that there were actually two separate markets at work.....a business travel market that was not totally sensitive to price and a pleasure travel market during the evenings and on weekends that was incredibly sensitive to price.

They raised the full Y fare to $26 (by then the CAB carriers were charging, I think, $37 each way) and the evening/weekend price to $13. They offered a little discount for a roundtrip.....$50 or $25. They were offering DAL-SAT only 4 times a day by this time....and not doing real well....so they decided they would either fish or cut bait by chopping the price on DAL-SAT to $13 on all flights regardless of time or day.

Loads took off. Flights that had been averaging 15 or 16 per trip were not carrying 70 or 80. Southwest calculated that they needed 39 passengers per flight at full fare to break even and could make money at the lower fare with a load in the 60s.

It was at that time that Braniff lowered their fare from Love Field to Hobby to $13 (their flights to IAH would still cost you over twice as much). That's when Lamar wrote the famous ad and Southwest ended up Texas' biggest distributot of Chivas Regal and Crown Royal. (They also offered a leather covered ice bucket for the Baptists who claimed that they did not drink.)

The rest is history. Southwest started making money, a habit they've never given up.

If you take the fare and apply the Consumer Price Index....the $25 fare in 1971 is worth $127.96 today. The $15 ticket would be $77 using the same conversion. You can get an advance purchase ticket for roughly 55 or 60 bucks, and a full walk up fare will run you about $125. In terms of real money, Southwest's fares have kept pace with inflation and very little else.
 
Art,

To play on one of your observations of no gate check issues. I fly both WN and AA being AA Expl and WN A. With WN not charging for 1st and 2nd bags, there is not as much carryon as AA. I have noticed the speed to get off a full WN jet is almost 50% faster than AA. One would think AA would be faster as they have large first class sections. I attribute this to two factors 1) lack of carryons and 2) WN has almost 'trained' their passengers the importance of a quick turn.

Now the exception to this is the main business routes. In my area thats DAL-HOU. Flights around 5 pm, overhead does tend to be full as more business travelers are on the flight.

Now a final random thought is that because WN has huge frequency between business markets many business travelers can make it a day trip without needing to spend the night and there is less need for overhead.
 
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