IAM Paycuts
- Thread starter wts54
- Start date
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 3:03:37 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
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[P]I believe that given certain seniority dates and work assignments, the claim that "we make more than you" is false. What did "we learn from the 90s Bob"?[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 3:03:37 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
[P][/P]----------------[BR][BR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I believe that given certain seniority dates and work assignments, the claim that "we make more than you" is false. What did "we learn from the 90s Bob"?[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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On 1/19/2003 9:53:06 PM ual747mech wrote:
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On 1/19/2003 9:03:32 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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I still have not fully thawed out from the freeze of the 90s. ----------------
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So did you guyz strike when they froze your wages at American in the early or mid 90s? "No" huh? Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about. I think you better worry about what's going on over there at your company. Looks like you guyz got your own set of problems over there.
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[/blockquote]
I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
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On 1/19/2003 9:53:06 PM ual747mech wrote:
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On 1/19/2003 9:03:32 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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I still have not fully thawed out from the freeze of the 90s. ----------------
[/blockquote]
So did you guyz strike when they froze your wages at American in the early or mid 90s? "No" huh? Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about. I think you better worry about what's going on over there at your company. Looks like you guyz got your own set of problems over there.
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[/blockquote]
I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
OK,the court can impose interim changes. Interim implys temporary, not permanent and not six years. Since your rates of pay were changed you can strike. Where does it say that you cant? The whole basis of the RLA is the maintenance of status quo. Status quo has been violated, under the railway labor act the company has resorted to self help, so you are entitled to strike. Without this right there would be no reason for labor to consent to the conditions of the RLA.It is the RLA that restricts your right to strike not the BK court.
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On 1/20/2003 3
06 PM RV4 wrote:
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On 1/20/2003 3:03:37 PM Bob Owens wrote:
[BLOCKQUOTE]
I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
[/P]----------------
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
I believe that given certain seniority dates and work assignments, the claim that "we make more than you" is false. What did "we learn from the 90s Bob"?[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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[/blockquote]
Hopefully we learned not to ever agree to paycuts.
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On 1/20/2003 3
06 PM RV4 wrote: [BLOCKQUOTE]
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On 1/20/2003 3:03:37 PM Bob Owens wrote:
[BLOCKQUOTE]
I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
[/P]----------------
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
I believe that given certain seniority dates and work assignments, the claim that "we make more than you" is false. What did "we learn from the 90s Bob"?[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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[/blockquote]
Hopefully we learned not to ever agree to paycuts.
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On 1/19/2003 11:35:04 PM ual06 wrote:
One question. What Union represents "Management" employees?
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Airtran's maintenance supervisors are represented by the Teamsters if I recall correctly. There are other airlines who have had union represented front-line supervisors, but I can't recall them off the top of my head.
Unions have tried to organize other management groups over the years, but most give up when they come to the realization they'd never be able to get enough cards to call for a representation election.
For those who insist on seeing it in writing...
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Section 5.312 of the NLRB's Representation Manual provides
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If an individual is determined to be a management official, the individual is ineligible [to vote for representation]. The Investigator shall consider, in the investigation, whether the involved individual has the authority to discharge and/or discipline employees or to effectively recommend the same; the extent of supervisory authority; the ability to authorize and grant overtime; the authority to transfer and/or establish assignments; the authority to create carrier policy; the authority and the extent to which carrier funds may be committed; whether the authority exercised is circumscribed by operating and policy manuals; the placement of the individual in the organizational hierarchy of the carrier; and any other relevant factors regarding the individual's duties and responsibilities.
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On 1/19/2003 11:35:04 PM ual06 wrote:
One question. What Union represents "Management" employees?
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[/blockquote]
Airtran's maintenance supervisors are represented by the Teamsters if I recall correctly. There are other airlines who have had union represented front-line supervisors, but I can't recall them off the top of my head.
Unions have tried to organize other management groups over the years, but most give up when they come to the realization they'd never be able to get enough cards to call for a representation election.
For those who insist on seeing it in writing...
[blockquote]
Section 5.312 of the NLRB's Representation Manual provides
[p]
If an individual is determined to be a management official, the individual is ineligible [to vote for representation]. The Investigator shall consider, in the investigation, whether the involved individual has the authority to discharge and/or discipline employees or to effectively recommend the same; the extent of supervisory authority; the ability to authorize and grant overtime; the authority to transfer and/or establish assignments; the authority to create carrier policy; the authority and the extent to which carrier funds may be committed; whether the authority exercised is circumscribed by operating and policy manuals; the placement of the individual in the organizational hierarchy of the carrier; and any other relevant factors regarding the individual's duties and responsibilities.
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 3:46:45 PM eolesen wrote:
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/19/2003 11:35:04 PM ual06 wrote: [BR][BR]One question. What Union represents "Management" employees?[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Airtran's maintenance supervisors are represented by the Teamsters if I recall correctly. There are other airlines who have had union represented front-line supervisors, but I can't recall them off the top of my head.[BR][BR]Unions have tried to organize other management groups over the years, but most give up when they come to the realization they'd never be able to get enough cards to call for a representation election.[BR][BR]For those who insist on seeing it in writing...[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]Section 5.312 of the NLRB's Representation Manual provides[BR][BR][BR]If an individual is determined to be a management official, the individual is ineligible [TO representation for vote]. The Investigator shall consider, in the investigation, whether the involved individual has the authority to discharge and/or discipline employees or to effectively recommend the same; the extent of supervisory authority; the ability to authorize and grant overtime; the authority to transfer and/or establish assignments; the authority to create carrier policy; the authority and the extent to which carrier funds may be committed; whether the authority exercised is circumscribed by operating and policy manuals; the placement of the individual in the organizational hierarchy of the carrier; and any other relevant factors regarding the individual's duties and responsibilities.[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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[P][BR]NLRB???[BR][BR]Maybe we should find some relevant RLA or NMB Manual References?[/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 3:46:45 PM eolesen wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/19/2003 11:35:04 PM ual06 wrote: [BR][BR]One question. What Union represents "Management" employees?[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Airtran's maintenance supervisors are represented by the Teamsters if I recall correctly. There are other airlines who have had union represented front-line supervisors, but I can't recall them off the top of my head.[BR][BR]Unions have tried to organize other management groups over the years, but most give up when they come to the realization they'd never be able to get enough cards to call for a representation election.[BR][BR]For those who insist on seeing it in writing...[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]Section 5.312 of the NLRB's Representation Manual provides[BR][BR][BR]If an individual is determined to be a management official, the individual is ineligible [TO representation for vote]. The Investigator shall consider, in the investigation, whether the involved individual has the authority to discharge and/or discipline employees or to effectively recommend the same; the extent of supervisory authority; the ability to authorize and grant overtime; the authority to transfer and/or establish assignments; the authority to create carrier policy; the authority and the extent to which carrier funds may be committed; whether the authority exercised is circumscribed by operating and policy manuals; the placement of the individual in the organizational hierarchy of the carrier; and any other relevant factors regarding the individual's duties and responsibilities.[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][BR]NLRB???[BR][BR]Maybe we should find some relevant RLA or NMB Manual References?[/P]
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On 1/20/2003 3:25:53 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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On 1/20/2003 306 PM RV4 wrote:
[BLOCKQUOTE]
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On 1/20/2003 3:03:37 PM Bob Owens wrote:
[BLOCKQUOTE]
I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
[/P]----------------
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
I believe that given certain seniority dates and work assignments, the claim that "we make more than you" is false. What did "we learn from the 90s Bob"?[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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[/blockquote]
Hopefully we learned not to ever agree to paycuts.
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[/blockquote]
Never agree to paycuts? What about 1983 and the B-scale and those cuts that followed at American Airlines? Bob were you an American employee when the TWU negotiated the B-scale?
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On 1/20/2003 3:25:53 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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On 1/20/2003 3
06 PM RV4 wrote: [BLOCKQUOTE]
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On 1/20/2003 3:03:37 PM Bob Owens wrote:
[BLOCKQUOTE]
I dont dispute that. But the fact is we are making more than you, and we received our full retro. The point is, hopefully we learned something from the 90s, apparently you did not.
[/P]----------------
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
I believe that given certain seniority dates and work assignments, the claim that "we make more than you" is false. What did "we learn from the 90s Bob"?[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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[/blockquote]
Hopefully we learned not to ever agree to paycuts.
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[/blockquote]
Never agree to paycuts? What about 1983 and the B-scale and those cuts that followed at American Airlines? Bob were you an American employee when the TWU negotiated the B-scale?
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On 1/20/2003 3:57:58 PM RV4 wrote:
NLRB???
Maybe we should find some relevant RLA or NMB Manual References?
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[/blockquote]
For someone who claims to be as well voiced on union issues as you are, surely you realize the National Labor Relations Board determines representation eligibility issues, and not the NMB or the RLA. The NLRB is the group who determined that Airtran's front-line supervisors were eligible for union representation, and also determined that AA's front line supervisors were not.
Surely you knew that as well, Dave.
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On 1/20/2003 3:57:58 PM RV4 wrote:
NLRB???
Maybe we should find some relevant RLA or NMB Manual References?
----------------
[/blockquote]
For someone who claims to be as well voiced on union issues as you are, surely you realize the National Labor Relations Board determines representation eligibility issues, and not the NMB or the RLA. The NLRB is the group who determined that Airtran's front-line supervisors were eligible for union representation, and also determined that AA's front line supervisors were not.
Surely you knew that as well, Dave.
casual rat
Senior
- Aug 25, 2002
- 413
- 3
Oh yeah Bob, When 'your' Bob Crandall figured out that pulling that one olive from his service would save him $10,000 per year, the Airline Industry changed forever. Bob Crandall the mother of the B-Scale....and Cost Cutting....and Reduced Service for the same fare....and...well, at least he'll die rich!
WE'RE PAWNS!
AMFA SUX
VOTE WITH FEET
GO RAIDERS
(with a cupla pom poms I wonder if I could go to a meeting)
WE'RE PAWNS!
AMFA SUX
VOTE WITH FEET
GO RAIDERS
(with a cupla pom poms I wonder if I could go to a meeting)
casual rat
Senior
- Aug 25, 2002
- 413
- 3
Bob,Bob,Bob...While it may be true that a restraining order may not be in force for a period of 6 years, I'm sure that it'll be in place until it does what it's meant to accomplish....You are right about one thing--the legal system perversion, that's documented. Money tends to win arguments. UAL has money for arguments...who do you think will win? BTW, AMR (and several of the other majors) is paying lobbyists in DC to lobby against Airline Employees right to self help (or the ability to strike) as we speak. I don't want to be a poster child for some money incentive-laden lobbyist to say "See, they strike totally helpless Airline companies for no reason..." (just a note...strikes are in a public forum). Now, didn't I tell you to save your own company from BK and get back to your own site? Better Hurry!
WE'RE PAWNS!
AMFA SUX
VOTE WITH FEET
GO RAIDERS
(I've always wanted to sound like a frat boy too!)
WE'RE PAWNS!
AMFA SUX
VOTE WITH FEET
GO RAIDERS
(I've always wanted to sound like a frat boy too!)
[blockquote]
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On 1/20/2003 3:23:45 PM Bob Owens wrote:
OK,the court can impose interim changes. Interim implys temporary, not permanent and not six years. Since your rates of pay were changed you can strike. Where does it say that you cant? The whole basis of the RLA is the maintenance of status quo. Status quo has been violated, under the railway labor act the company has resorted to self help, so you are entitled to strike. Without this right there would be no reason for labor to consent to the conditions of the RLA.It is the RLA that restricts your right to strike not the BK court.
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[/blockquote]
You know what? No matter how many references I give you, you're never going to be satisfied. The bottom line is you don't know what you are talking about.
Yes!! It's interim or temporary only. It is temporary until the Union and the Company come to a permanent consensual agreement. If the Union and the company don't come to an agreement then the Judge will decide whether or not to authorize a rejection of the collective bargaining agreement(contract).
10. What can happen to our Contract if United files for Chapter 11?
Under Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code, the debtor may ask the bankruptcy court for authority to reject labor Contracts, and it can thereby seek to modify any provision in a labor Contract, including scope.
The debtor must go through a negotiation and litigation process before it can obtain rejection of a labor Contract. First, a proposal must be provided to the relevant Union prior to the company’s filing the motion to reject in court. Among the statutory requirements, the proposal must provide only for “necessary†modifications that are “necessary†to permit reorganization and assure “fair†and “equitable†treatment of all parties. The company must also provide the Union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal. Then, within 2-3 weeks of filing this motion, during which negotiations take place, a full-scale bankruptcy court hearing is held where all interested parties can be heard. Negotiations often continue during the hearing. If no settlement is reached, the court’s decision on rejection of Contracts will be made within 40-51 days of the filing of the motion unless the debtor agrees to extend this period.
If the rejection of a labor Contract is approved, it leads to the debtor’s implementation of its last offer to the Union. The Union then has the right to strike.
Under Section 1113 (e) of the Bankruptcy Code, emergency short-term relief may be granted on an expedited basis without a full negotiating process if the court finds that the relief is “essential†to the continuation of business or to avoid “irreparable harm†to the bankruptcy estate.
Since your rates of pay were changed you can strike. Where does it say that you cant?
Everything has to be followed in accordance of section 1113 of the bankruptcy code before anybody can strike. And only if their cba is rejected then they can strike. Why do you think no labor group is striking right now? Do you know more than the unions do? Look at my previous post above for Section 1113. Study it, learn it, live it because you might need it soon because American seems to be reeling on the edge of bankruptcy too.
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On 1/20/2003 3:23:45 PM Bob Owens wrote:
OK,the court can impose interim changes. Interim implys temporary, not permanent and not six years. Since your rates of pay were changed you can strike. Where does it say that you cant? The whole basis of the RLA is the maintenance of status quo. Status quo has been violated, under the railway labor act the company has resorted to self help, so you are entitled to strike. Without this right there would be no reason for labor to consent to the conditions of the RLA.It is the RLA that restricts your right to strike not the BK court.
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[/blockquote]
You know what? No matter how many references I give you, you're never going to be satisfied. The bottom line is you don't know what you are talking about.
Yes!! It's interim or temporary only. It is temporary until the Union and the Company come to a permanent consensual agreement. If the Union and the company don't come to an agreement then the Judge will decide whether or not to authorize a rejection of the collective bargaining agreement(contract).
10. What can happen to our Contract if United files for Chapter 11?
Under Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code, the debtor may ask the bankruptcy court for authority to reject labor Contracts, and it can thereby seek to modify any provision in a labor Contract, including scope.
The debtor must go through a negotiation and litigation process before it can obtain rejection of a labor Contract. First, a proposal must be provided to the relevant Union prior to the company’s filing the motion to reject in court. Among the statutory requirements, the proposal must provide only for “necessary†modifications that are “necessary†to permit reorganization and assure “fair†and “equitable†treatment of all parties. The company must also provide the Union with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal. Then, within 2-3 weeks of filing this motion, during which negotiations take place, a full-scale bankruptcy court hearing is held where all interested parties can be heard. Negotiations often continue during the hearing. If no settlement is reached, the court’s decision on rejection of Contracts will be made within 40-51 days of the filing of the motion unless the debtor agrees to extend this period.
If the rejection of a labor Contract is approved, it leads to the debtor’s implementation of its last offer to the Union. The Union then has the right to strike.
Under Section 1113 (e) of the Bankruptcy Code, emergency short-term relief may be granted on an expedited basis without a full negotiating process if the court finds that the relief is “essential†to the continuation of business or to avoid “irreparable harm†to the bankruptcy estate.
Since your rates of pay were changed you can strike. Where does it say that you cant?
Everything has to be followed in accordance of section 1113 of the bankruptcy code before anybody can strike. And only if their cba is rejected then they can strike. Why do you think no labor group is striking right now? Do you know more than the unions do? Look at my previous post above for Section 1113. Study it, learn it, live it because you might need it soon because American seems to be reeling on the edge of bankruptcy too.
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On 1/19/2003 11:35:04 PM ual06 wrote:
One question. What Union represents "Management" employees"?
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[/blockquote]
TWU does at US Air. That's Bob Owens' Union.
TWU LOCAL 545
Representing USAirways Dispatchers, Instructors, Coordinators, Airline Managers and TMS
Here's the link: http://www.twuatd.org/default.asp?id=83&mnu=83
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On 1/19/2003 11:35:04 PM ual06 wrote:
One question. What Union represents "Management" employees"?
----------------
[/blockquote]
TWU does at US Air. That's Bob Owens' Union.
TWU LOCAL 545
Representing USAirways Dispatchers, Instructors, Coordinators, Airline Managers and TMS
Here's the link: http://www.twuatd.org/default.asp?id=83&mnu=83
Hey Bob Owens!
Looks like American hired a bankruptcy attorney. Here's an excerpt from an article.
American, a unit of Dallas-based AMR Corp. AMR.N , has retained lawyers Marcia Goldstein and Martin Bienenstock at its long-time legal adviser Weil Gotshal & Manges, sources said.
The law firm partners were not immediately available to comment.
Harvey Miller, the former well-known head of the bankruptcy group at Weil Gotshal, has also been retained as an adviser to American from his current banking firm of Greenhill & Co., several sources said. Miller was not immediately available to comment.
PRUDENT MOVE
Tim Doke, a spokesman for American, declined to comment on whether AMR had retained either firm, but noted that the airline had a long-standing legal relationship with the Weil Gotshal law firm.
"With a third of the airline industry in bankruptcy and the prospect of war with Iraq...it would be imprudent of any airline not to be exploring all of its options," Doke said.
Looks like American hired a bankruptcy attorney. Here's an excerpt from an article.
American, a unit of Dallas-based AMR Corp. AMR.N , has retained lawyers Marcia Goldstein and Martin Bienenstock at its long-time legal adviser Weil Gotshal & Manges, sources said.
The law firm partners were not immediately available to comment.
Harvey Miller, the former well-known head of the bankruptcy group at Weil Gotshal, has also been retained as an adviser to American from his current banking firm of Greenhill & Co., several sources said. Miller was not immediately available to comment.
PRUDENT MOVE
Tim Doke, a spokesman for American, declined to comment on whether AMR had retained either firm, but noted that the airline had a long-standing legal relationship with the Weil Gotshal law firm.
"With a third of the airline industry in bankruptcy and the prospect of war with Iraq...it would be imprudent of any airline not to be exploring all of its options," Doke said.
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On 1/21/2003 3
56 PM ual747mech wrote:
Looks like American hired a bankruptcy attorney.
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[/blockquote]
Does everyone who talks to a divorce lawyer file for divorce?...
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On 1/21/2003 3
56 PM ual747mech wrote: Looks like American hired a bankruptcy attorney.
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[/blockquote]
Does everyone who talks to a divorce lawyer file for divorce?...
