Job losses from a US-AA merger

[N288AA]

People don't seem to realize how much distrust their is at AA. The board would have been better off bringing in an outsider than making the in-house decision they made with Horton. Even though he has revamped management, he is still associated with the with prior management team. I know of no one that I have talked to that has any respect for current management.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The devil you don't know usually seems better than the devil you know, especially when the devil you don't know wants something from you. Parker and Horton are from the same stock - both started their careers at AA and learned from the master.

Jim

 

[firedougparker]

It just amazes me how almost every thread here wanders off from being about the subject and becomes an attack on the poster. The original subject of this thread I believe has merit and should be explored further.....but that would take maturity--something lacking in a good number of folks around here......

Fact is, if the merger does take place, there will be jobs lost. How many is anyone's guess, but there is a chance it could be worse than if AA remained standalone. Likely? Perhaps not, but possible? Absolutely.

I would strongly suggest that AA union officials talk off line with their counterparts at AA if they can.....my personal opinion is that Doug Parker and team are not to be trusted...they know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

My BEST to you all.....

Thank you for an intelligent comment. I also think these issues deserve a proper discussion. Obviously I have my own opinions, mainly that Parker should go and this merger should be stopped in it's tracks. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but there seems to be some sort of bias against a civil debate here. Easier to call someone names than it is argue an opposing position, I guess.

 

[wings396]

I must ask, what answers do you have on this issue?
Fire Parker,OK Who do you have in mind to replace him?
Stop the merger? Where does US go from that point being much smaller than the big 2?
We all know that expansion has been non existent as is, and I don't see any on the horizon with the over capacity that exists in the industry. I realize things may not go well for all involved, but the long term picture isn't looking great for anyone if things stay as is.

 

[signals]

Stapling can no longer happen under federal law, so the US FAs and the AA FAs will either agree on seniority integration or an arbitrator would decide. Same thing with pilots. USAPA becomes irrelevant if US and AA combine - the Allied PIlots Association would be the bargaining agent and arbitration would be used to integrate the lists - but unlike last time, the loser US East pilots would have no possible escape from the arbitration outcome as they comprise a small minority of the total pilot group. Thus, they couldn't form a commpeting union like they did with USAPA. The East pilots would actually be bound by their agreement to arbitrate.

I agree with you that Parker is playing the AA unions, but I also think that they are playing him, hoping that cuddling with Doug Parker ultimately gets them more from AA. I seriously doubt that any AA employees actually want to merge with US, as airline employees generally despise mergers.

This is Parker's last chance to be the CEO of a world-wide airline, and he knows it. He's willing to spend whatever it takes, even if it means promising the AA employees the moon (which would be funded by the current US employees, no doubt).

Thanks for the info.

The point is that it was not actually stapling. If I remember it(it's in the AFA thread at US buried on the 15th page or there abouts), APFA has a clause that part-timers at AA would have the option of becoming full-time before an actual merger. Now I know this isn't accurate, but the jist is they weren't actually stapled.

Since the east cries are over seniority, my guess is that the west has more seniority than most. So if the dominating and only union finally becomes APA, and APA members outnumber US as a whole, the FOs at AA would actually have more seniority than ALL the pilots at US. This is how most unions work, but in your Mondo-Retardo this may be far from an outcome 🙄

I have said that this is all airline drama, and Dug is a bargaining chip. But he is going all out as the reports that once trashed him and his airline are now in his favor. Not to start a conspiracy, but it seems that certain analysists are in a Will Praise For Food moment as they hold their signs by the roadside.

 

[signals]

Hey wingy, it's not me 😛

 

[Art at ISP]

I think it is safe to say Parker is not going anywhere, at least from US. Whether or not he is successful at getting AA is questionable at this point. My personal opinion is he is over his head at US, one can only imagine he'd drown if given AA to ruin. I give him credit for being great with numbers, but that means he can manipulate spreadsheets to show whatever he wants them to show.

I agree with Jim--that the devil you don't know often appears to be more attractive than the devil you know...and in this case I think it is very dangerous. I completely understand the distrust and anymosity that AA employees hold for their current management but it is not that different from the same feelings that many employees at US have toward their incumbent team. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side....

Again my personal opinion, but I think the way Parker is going about this is reprehensible, and while I think the odds of him getting away with this merger are at best 50-50, I can still see it backfiring in his face. I prefer to see AA survive as a standalone carrier, with the employees treated fairly--but AA employees should be aware that there is no guarantee they will make out any better under Parker. I implore the AA unions to talk to their counterparts at US.

Then again, there's a good chance they are playing Parker to get a better deal from AMR...let's hope so...for everyone's sake...

My BEST to you all....

 

[FWAAA]

Since the east cries are over seniority, my guess is that the west has more seniority than most. So if the dominating and only union finally becomes APA, and APA members outnumber US as a whole, the FOs at AA would actually have more seniority than ALL the pilots at US. This is how most unions work, but in your Mondo-Retardo this may be far from an outcome.

My guess is that US pilots are a much older workforce than AA pilots, and that's been confirmed by some AA pilot posters over on the AA forum.

One key reason is that AA has had about 1,000 pilots retire early since 2008 (no mandatory retirements since late 2007 because of the 60 to 65 change). Their incentive, of course, was the ability to withdraw their pension as a lump sum plus the "look-back" provisions of the B-plan that permits pilots to avoid huge market downturns. That has left AA with relatively few pilots over the age of 59 compared with the relatively older workforce of US East, which has large numbers of 60-64.5 year old pilots right now and retirements will begin in large numbers later this year when the oldest hits 65.

I have no idea how the seniority integration arbitration works out, but if DOH is a key criteria, there could be a lot of US pilots placed ahead of AA pilots. Doug may have promised some fences that would keep US pilots from immediately gaining left seats in AA's 777s. My guess is that a prolific poster who used to covet UA's 747s has been hoping that he'll bid into an AA 777 not long after the merger. IIRC, US has a fair number of older pilots who will retire from the right seat.

 

[signals]

Perhaps I see it a bit different. I could be totally wrong here, but isn't DOH based on your seniority in a union? In my line of business there exist various unions. Your DOH is based on your longevity with your union. If you switch to another union, your DOH is when you join the other union.

The logic would be, for example, if I've been paying union dues to APA, and US has been paying union dues to a pipedream, shouldn't I have more seniority than these interlopers?

Maybe in a roundabout way yor industry reaches that conclusion but has to be litigated for years in the courts. Just ask US! 🙄

 

[nycbusdriver]

It just amazes me how almost every thread here wanders off from being about the subject and becomes an attack on the poster. The original subject of this thread I believe has merit and should be explored further.....but that would take maturity--something lacking in a good number of folks around here......

It just amazes me that you are still amazed. And keep commenting on it.

 

[Phoenix]

People don't seem to realize how much distrust their is at AA. The board would have been better off bringing in an outsider than making the in-house decision they made with Horton. Even though he has revamped management, he is still associated with the with prior management team. I know of no one that I have talked to that has any respect for current management.

Ditto to no respect...

I would go further and say there appears to be an excessive disdain for management among a majority of the AA jumpseaters I have witnessed.

So to get back to the OP (job losses)....

-- the AA pilots objectivity is at risk of being overcome by excessive hate for management
-- the West pilot's objectivity is at risk due to excessive hate for USAPA
-- the East pilot's objectivity is at risk due to hatred (rational 😀) for Nic
-- every pilot is at risk of being emotionally driven by pie in the sky pay rates and Parker's promises of two Porsches for every garage.

Let's face it... its a tinderbox waiting to explode...

In the Sand Castle, irrational exuberance abounds, the employee trenches are swamped with unprecedented anxiety, fear, and hunger for something new... and the queen has spread a rumor of free cake.. its sweeping the beleaguered masses... meanwhile the guillotines are being erected in full view.

It was the best of times...

 

[EastUS1]

Ditto to no respect...

Let's face it... its a tinderbox waiting to explode...

In the Sand Castle, irrational exuberance abounds, the employee trenches are swamped with unprecedented anxiety, fear, and hunger for something new... and the queen has spread a rumor of free cake.. its sweeping the beleaguered masses... meanwhile the guillotines are being erected in full view.

It was the best of times...

Yes indeed...and without doubt, thousands of baskets would be filled with freshly chopped jobs in the event this goes through. Whenever what laughably passes for management on either side speaks...a good rule of thumb would be to note that whenever lips are moving...lies are being told, as in no furloughs/lay offs/etc.

 

[Phoenix]

DOH is when

I could be totally wrong here, but isn't DOH based on your seniority in a union?.... Your DOH is based on your longevity with your union. ...
:

Yes you could be wrong. Does a union hire you?

 

[Phoenix]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way...

My apologies to Charley. 😛

 

[signals]

DOH is when

Yes you could be wrong. Does a union hire you?

Whoa, don't bite my head off. But I wouldn't want to be or even trust a shop stupid.

Btw, on your post I don't see your DOH is when.

Don't know what it meant, but DOH is when you become a member of that union, not when you started with the company, IN THE UNION'S VIEW!

But like I said, yours is a different world.