Kasher Vrs. Contract?

[MCI transplant]

Point of order... there are considerably fewer than 100 ex-TW aircraft still operating -- 19 757's and about 40 MD80s, give or take a few.

That doesn't include the 25-30 MD80's in ROW which are either in long term storage or being parted out for salvage. Either way, those aircraft aren't being worked in TUL -- they're being worked onsite by AAR.

<_< FM------ I don't agree with your numbers, but even at that, they should be worked here!

The contract concessions do not affect the Kasher ruling period!

<_< O.K.----- How about the other way arround!???

 

[eolesen]

<_< FM------ I don't agree with your numbers, but even at that, they should be worked here!

You're correct -- I was missing a subfleet type, and that's been corrected above. But there are still only about 90 former TW aircraft remaining active, which is way down from the the time of the acquisition, and if fuel stays where it is, I'd expect more of the MD80's to be parked and/or parted out.

 

[Vortilon]

<_< FM------ I don't agree with your numbers, but even at that, they should be worked here!
<_< O.K.----- How about the other way arround!???

The other way around? Hey I understand you're wanting to rewrite history for your benefit; however, this dog won't hunt. Kasher was more than fair with the TWA AMTs. If you want to find fault with the cut backs etc. go find a Muslim terrorist. They are the ones that put us on the slippery slope with the 911 incident.

 

[Man of the People]

Whether or not you liked the decision made by Kasher, those voting members who accepted the contract also bought off on the language to incorporate a neutral arbitrator to determine any integration issues. I keep hearing AA employees revert back to TWA personnel ..."you're lucky to have a job..." Well, one day, when AA is bought out by another airline, maybe we'll be given 25% of our AA seniority. Then, and only then, will we know how it'll feel. Some will be thankful to at least have a job. Yet others will leave no stone unturned as they scramble to fight for their lost AA time. All affected, no matter which side of the fence you're on, will be expected to maintain the same position they now have regarding this issue. So, I don't want to hear some AA employee bitching about putting the TWA guys on the bottom, then do an "about-face" when their seniority is impacted in the future as a result of an acquisition. That my friend is known as hypocritical.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

If the TWA people valued their seniority so bad, then they should have said NO to eliminating their successorship clause in their union contracts. Whether you like it or not TWA people, you gave up your seniority as a condition of AA buying your worthless bankrupt airline. The AA purchase of TWA is one of the dumbest blunders ever in the history of the airline industry. If AA had never bought TWA, maybe AA would still have it's fuel hedges in place and the concessions of 2003 maybe could have been avoided. I was against the purchase of TWA as were all AA employees(except higher management), because we knew that "certain"TWA employees would try every scam possible so they could "steal" the naatives seniority for their own benefit. Go ahead ex-TWAers file all the lawsuits you want. They ain't going anywhere!

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< Bob----I feel that our presant Contract, which was signed after the last Kasher ruling takes presadance! Art.10e is stright forward in it's meaning! If transferred, (for whatever reason), your ocupational seniority shall not be mest with!!! Kasher aworded me 100%, because at the time of the buy-out I was stationed here at MCI! I believe this was merly a means to establish seniority for the purpose of integrating the work forces, nothing more! Well guess what? We've been intagrated! Our seniority has been etablished! And now the contract, not Kasher, is the governing force in our dayly lifes here at aa!!! My opinion, nothing more!!!

That arguement has no logic.

Are you saying that since you are in MCI that you carry 100% seniority wherever you go but another TWA guy from New York, who may have been senior to you would only have 25% of his TWA time? So the two of you could end up in the same station, but since you were in MCI at the time that you would have all your seniority but he would only have 25%? Quite frankly , thats nuts. Talk about unfair, how unfair would that be to the guys in New York? Its funny how MCI and TUL think exactly alike, that they are the only ones who matter and everyone elses interests are expendable.

The fact is that the TWA guys, by virtue of the Kasher decision have three different occupational seniority dates. I'm not going to argue its merits, it was a bad decision, but it is what it is. You have three different dates, look at the Seniority list. As long as you stay in certain places you can have 100%, however if the company reduces headcount in those stations your seniority will be determined by location, different locations, different seniority.

The Kasher decision is in fact part of the contract.

 

[MCI transplant]

If the TWA people valued their seniority so bad, then they should have said NO to eliminating their successorship clause in their union contracts. Whether you like it or not TWA people, you gave up your seniority as a condition of AA buying your worthless bankrupt airline. The AA purchase of TWA is one of the dumbest blunders ever in the history of the airline industry. If AA had never bought TWA, maybe AA would still have it's fuel hedges in place and the concessions of 2003 maybe could have been avoided. I was against the purchase of TWA as were all AA employees(except higher management), because we knew that "certain"TWA employees would try every scam possible so they could "steal" the naatives seniority for their own benefit. Go ahead ex-TWAers file all the lawsuits you want. They ain't going anywhere!

<_< Princess----- We've been here before! To understand the reason we gave up our scope clauses, you have to understand what was going on at the time! TWA was in BK! We were still under our currant TWA contracts, for what they were worth! We still had, although not up to industry standard, fairly desant wage! We still had Medical insurance! We still had, but soon to loose to the PBCG, our retirement! We still had our work rules! Holidays! Vacation! Initially we did refuse to give up our scope!! But Carty told the Unions that he would have our intire contracts be thrown out by the court under 1013!!! That's for all our Unions! But if we voliteraly gave them up, he would see to it that we were treated "Fairly!" So now came the decision, that you and your AAers think was so easy to give up! Give up scope? Or risk having our whole conract thrown out!!!Think about it! To go forward, in those circumstance, with no protections at all! What would you have done in our place???? As for aa buying TWA, at the time it was touted by the media as a "Master stroke"! And if things (9/11) would happened differantly, maybe it would have been! I know Carty had a differant outlook on all this than Arpy! But that's another topic! We at TWA, the employees, weren't too happy with it either, but had no say in it!! In fact, we got screwed there also! the single largest Stock Holders were the employees!! when aa/ Compton, put us in Bk to get reed of Uncle Carl, our Stock went to $00.00!!! I don't know who you've been listening to, maybe aafsc, but I don't know anyone who wanted to "steal" your jobs!!! As for our Lawsuits, at least one Judge believes the case has merit! So we'll just have to wait and see if the "Jury" does also!!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

That arguement has no logic.

Are you saying that since you are in MCI that you carry 100% seniority wherever you go but another TWA guy from New York, who may have been senior to you would only have 25% of his TWA time? So the two of you could end up in the same station, but since you were in MCI at the time that you would have all your seniority but he would only have 25%? Quite frankly , thats nuts. Talk about unfair, how unfair would that be to the guys in New York? Its funny how MCI and TUL think exactly alike, that they are the only ones who matter and everyone elses interests are expendable.

The fact is that the TWA guys, by virtue of the Kasher decision have three different occupational seniority dates. I'm not going to argue its merits, it was a bad decision, but it is what it is. You have three different dates, look at the Seniority list. As long as you stay in certain places you can have 100%, however if the company reduces headcount in those stations your seniority will be determined by location, different locations, different seniority.

The Kasher decision is in fact part of the contract.

Bob------ This whole thing with the Kaser ruling, plus the laungage in our current contract, is rediculous!!!! Seniority is Seniority. But if I have to take half a glass of water, or none, I'll take half!!! And this is not a MCI, JFK thing!!! I didn't come up with these rediculise breakdowns!! Do you believe it was "Fair" to be "Targetted for Lay-offs"??? ( Your words, not mine!!!)

 

[aafsc]

<_< Princess----- We've been here before! To understand the reason we gave up our scope clauses, you have to understand what was going on at the time! TWA was in BK! We were still under our currant TWA contracts, for what they were worth! We still had, although not up to industry standard, fairly desant wage! We still had Medical insurance! We still had, but soon to loose to the PBCG, our retirement! We still had our work rules! Holidays! Vacation! Initially we did refuse to give up our scope!! But Carty told the Unions that he would have our intire contracts be thrown out by the court under 1013!!! That's for all our Unions! But if we voliteraly gave them up, he would see to it that we were treated "Fairly!" So now came the decision, that you and your AAers think was so easy to give up! Give up scope? Or risk having our whole conract thrown out!!!Think about it! To go forward, in those circumstance, with no protections at all! What would you have done in our place???? As for aa buying TWA, at the time it was touted by the media as a "Master stroke"! And if things (9/11) would happened differantly, maybe it would have been! I know Carty had a differant outlook on all this than Arpy! But that's another topic! We at TWA, the employees, weren't too happy with it either, but had no say in it!! In fact, we got screwed there also! the single largest Stock Holders were the employees!! when aa/ Compton, put us in Bk to get reed of Uncle Carl, our Stock went to $00.00!!! I don't know who you've been listening to, maybe aafsc, but I don't know anyone who wanted to "steal" your jobs!!! As for our Lawsuits, at least one Judge believes the case has merit! So we'll just have to wait and see if the "Jury" does also!!!!!

TWA was among the lowest in terms wages in the industry amongst the legacies. When the ex-TWAers came to AA, your pay went from one of the worst to industry leading and in the last 4.5 years, you have accrued AA pension benefits that almost match what your pension benefits are from working 30 years at TWA. I would say that getting all this is being treated very "fairly". Don't expect nAAtives to pay the price for your years of capitulation at TWA. Perhaps the TWA people should have informed Carty and Compton that they will strike and shut TWA down if your seniority is waived or the court completely abrogated your contract in an 1113. Like I have always said, the TWAer's strategy was to make sure the AA/TWA deal was done by waiving their seniority; then when the deal was closed, file lawsuits and grievances to try to get it back.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

TWA was among the lowest in terms wages in the industry amongst the legacies. When the ex-TWAers came to AA, your pay went from one of the worst to industry leading and in the last 4.5 years, you have accrued AA pension benefits that almost match what your pension benefits are from working 30 years at TWA. I would say that getting all this is being treated very "fairly". Don't expect nAAtives to pay the price for your years of capitulation at TWA. Perhaps the TWA people should have informed Carty and Compton that they will strike and shut TWA down if your seniority is waived or the court completely abrogated your contract in an 1113. Like I have always said, the TWAer's strategy was to make sure the AA/TWA deal was done by waiving their seniority; then when the deal was closed, file lawsuits and grievances to try to get it back.

 

[MCI transplant]

TWA was among the lowest in terms wages in the industry amongst the legacies. When the ex-TWAers came to AA, your pay went from one of the worst to industry leading and in the last 4.5 years, you have accrued AA pension benefits that almost match what your pension benefits are from working 30 years at TWA. I would say that getting all this is being treated very "fairly". Don't expect nAAtives to pay the price for your years of capitulation at TWA. Perhaps the TWA people should have informed Carty and Compton that they will strike and shut TWA down if your seniority is waived or the court completely abrogated your contract in an 1113. Like I have always said, the TWAer's strategy was to make sure the AA/TWA deal was done by waiving their seniority; then when the deal was closed, file lawsuits and grievances to try to get it back.

<_< aa----- As usual, Your talking out of the wrong side of your mouth! TWA didn't get the privaleges of your "premium" Contract for over a year AFTER the buy out!!!! We were LLC!!! Remmber???? Can you imagin working for that year without a contract!!!! You know aa, it's easy for you to say what we should have done! But you didn't live through it!!!I did!! Your quick with the lip, but really don't have a clue!!!!

 

[Wretched Wrench]

TWA was among the lowest in terms wages in the industry amongst the legacies. When the ex-TWAers came to AA, your pay went from one of the worst to industry leading and in the last 4.5 years, you have accrued AA pension benefits that almost match what your pension benefits are from working 30 years at TWA. I would say that getting all this is being treated very "fairly". Don't expect nAAtives to pay the price for your years of capitulation at TWA. Perhaps the TWA people should have informed Carty and Compton that they will strike and shut TWA down if your seniority is waived or the court completely abrogated your contract in an 1113. Like I have always said, the TWAer's strategy was to make sure the AA/TWA deal was done by waiving their seniority; then when the deal was closed, file lawsuits and grievances to try to get it back.

Well said!

.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob------ This whole thing with the Kaser ruling, plus the laungage in our current contract, is rediculous!!!! Seniority is Seniority.

Well according to Kasher, (who is the one who gets the blame, despite the fact that I believe that the TWU dreamed up this whole unprecidented fiasco in order to target certain Locals to be impacted by the aquisition while leaving others virtually unscathed) you now have three different occupational seniority dates. Kasher is not indelible, it can be changed during the next round of negotiations, but it is part of the contract.

But if I have to take half a glass of water, or none, I'll take half!!! And this is not a MCI, JFK thing!!! I didn't come up with these rediculise breakdowns!! Do you believe it was "Fair" to be "Targetted for Lay-offs"??? ( Your words, not mine!!!)

Well if you guys had voted as we advised there would have only been limited layoffs, but you chose to believe Little, Gless and Luby.

Fair? The guys from MCI (and Tulsa) have never considered whether or not things were "fair" for the last twenty years as they gave concession after concession, never considering how the concessions that still allowed them to live very comfortably were devastating to those workers who worked where the money was generated. The concessions of 2003 targeted us on the line who saw a bigger cut in pay, even though we could afford it less, than those of you from overhaul, was that fair? Then on top of that Tulsa even tried to take away line premium to get themselves another holiday! Did you guys care? Did you consider what was "fair" then? Why all of a sudden should we be worried about fairness?

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

TWA was a dead carrier until AA came along and would have Chapter 7'ed well before 911. Global Aviation(I think that was their name) tried to buy TWA just before AA buyout offer and even in bankruptcy court, but couldn't even come up with the cash for even a down payment. Of course "Uncle Carl" could have bought back TWA, but I don't think TWAer's would have went for that. Like it or not AA saved a lot TWA people from hitting the streets! Many AA'ers ,like me, now feel all we did was "rescue" a drowning rattlesnake. Despite our best intentions we have been bitten and are still getting bit. What ever good will that AA people had toward TWA people is quickly going bad because of these B.S. lawsuits and accusations.

 

[Bob Owens]

TWA was a dead carrier until AA came along and would have Chapter 7'ed well before 911. Global Aviation(I think that was their name) tried to buy TWA just before AA buyout offer and even in bankruptcy court, but couldn't even come up with the cash for even a down payment. Of course "Uncle Carl" could have bought back TWA, but I don't think TWAer's would have went for that. Like it or not AA saved a lot TWA people from hitting the streets! Many AA'ers ,like me, now feel all we did was "rescue" a drowning rattlesnake. Despite our best intentions we have been bitten and are still getting bit. What ever good will that AA people had toward TWA people is quickly going bad because of these B.S. lawsuits and accusations.

From what I see, here in NY things are pretty smooth. In fact there are a few guys from TWA running for office and from what I'm hearing they have a pretty good chance at winning. The only way that could happen is if enough Naatives vote for them.