Lead mech refuses pledge to flag at union meeting

[Bear96]

I've clearly no solution to the problem of continual "tribal warfare" within our species. I actually must confess to believing that it's tragically, an historically "normal" state to be in, as has been seen for most of mankind's time thus far.

That's part of the patriotism mindset. Patriotism leads to tribal warfare. At its core, patriotism means that you think the people who happen to be on one side of an arbitrarily drawn line / border (i.e., your "tribe") are somehow better than those on the other side, to the extent that you are occasionally willing go to war to spread your supposedly superior way of life to those who may not want or understand it. As long as people are "patriotic," and consider that a virtue, the cycle will continue. (This is not, BTW, to say that in some extreme cases, going to war in true instances of self defense is not necessary. It is.)

I see some combination of both national Will and focus...and yes, some degree of "blind" patriotism as a good prescription for triumph in the field.

But too much patriotism blinds a country as to why it is in "the field" in the first place, and as to what triumph actually means.

Most certainly they've fallen, pretty frequently in fact.

And so now western Europe is some sort of inhospitable wasteland? Hardly. Maybe we have different definitions of "fallen." Sure, those arbitrary lines have been redrawn, and a different bunch of bureaucrats have been in charge, and the flags have changed color and design over the years. But are the people worse off because of it? Is Europe today a worse place to live now compared to before some of these "fallings"? Again, hardly. So has a people or civilization or nation really "fallen"? Perhaps only one -- Nazi Germany, and deservedly so -- but of course that was an extreme example of patriotism, no? And can it be said the German people have really "fallen" because the Third Reich is no more?

Thanks for a civilized discussion, especially on what can be a volatile issue. It is refreshing to talk about something besides, well, you know, all that M-stuff.

 

[ilg30/7]

I believe in the supreme law of this country and it's called the Constitution of the United States of America. Embodied within it are the first ten amendments, known to those who are paying attention, as the "Bill of Rights."

Anything, including the flag and the pledge, are secondary to the Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees....including the freedom to NOT pledge allegiance.

I don't think anybody is suggesting he be jailed for not reciting the pledge, which is what is forbidden by the Bill of Rights, as all the good Constitutional scholars in here are no doubt aware.

You see, the Bill of Rights constrains government. The government cannot require said individual from refusing to recite the pledge, under penalty of law.

An individual private organization like a union, however, is free to make value judgements in our society, and if the group memebership decides that is not the type of indiviual they want representing them, then that is their right also.

 

[EastUS]

Sure, those arbitrary lines have been redrawn, and a different bunch of bureaucrats have been in charge, and the flags have changed color and design over the years. But are the people worse off because of it? Is Europe today a worse place to live now compared to before some of these "fallings"? Again, hardly. So has a people or civilization or nation really "fallen"? Perhaps only one -- Nazi Germany, and deservedly so -- but of course that was an extreme example of patriotism, no?

"Patriotism leads to tribal warfare. At its core, patriotism means that you think the people who happen to be on one side of an arbitrarily drawn line / border (i.e., your "tribe") are somehow better than those on the other side, to the extent that you are occasionally willing go to war to spread your supposedly superior way of life to those who may not want or understand it."

No offence meant..but the notion of patriotism leading to tribal warfare is, I feel, a bit naeive. It's my sad observation that organized mutual slaughter's been part and parcel of the human experience from prehistoric times. The trailing notion that most any war's "to spread your supposedly superior way of life" is, I believe, a function of your rather specificlly American outlook, and is itself indicative of some degree of an "invincibility" fantasy on your part sir. I've no thought that our nation can't be destroyed...it can, and over time...our "empire" will eventually be absorbed into the flow of history. I believe that most war originates from more basic issues = turf and resources, and it may be that you meant that "patriotism" is merely a cloaking device for such...in which case we've some degree of an accord.

" And so now western Europe is some sort of inhospitable wasteland? Hardly. Maybe we have different definitions of "fallen." We do differ here as well. My concept of fallen's pretty straightforward, and does not encompass how well any nation recovers after it's been conquered, as the europeans have done....mostly with our direct asistance I'll note "And can it be said the German people have really "fallen" because the Third Reich is no more?" Most certainly. The only reasons for germany to "exist" today are the fairly benign occupation by the USA/France/Britain...and the economic devastation and "destruction" of the Soviet Union, which had half of that area enslaved to communism. The example of the Third Reich serves to show that "Germany"...then a hugely successfull, but megalomaniacal, and fully evil entity bent upon global conquest...certainly no longer exists. That people still live there and speak the same language as in 1939-45 is a fine thing...but they're no longer lunatics that briefly, and very tragically "owned" europe. My point being that the current germans are not those of the Third Reich..and the changes, both social and otherwise, are products of their predecessors' total defeat. That it's unarguably a good thing for us that this is so in this case doesn't alter the cost to them of defeat. It'd be difficult to argue that being defeated's generally any good thing, nor is it reasonable to note that it does other than destroy whatever social and economic paradigm's present in the defeated nation....not too mention the obscene casualties, and families/lives that never were to be as a result. Germany was VERY lucky to have been conquered largely by US methinks, note how much fun they had in the East there under Russia.

I'll cease tying up the bandwidth for now.

"Thanks for a civilized discussion, especially on what can be a volatile issue. It is refreshing to talk about something besides, well, you know, all that M-stuff."

Roger that.

 

[UAL_TECH]

If you are defining "patriotism" as "will" and a "focus" to get something done and nothing more, I would agree with you.

If you are defining "patriotism" as some sort of blind "love of country" and a feeling that one's country is superior to all others, and enjoy pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, I disagree that lack of that "loses real wars."

How exactly are you defining patriotism? Based on your postings I had assumed you were using the latter definition I gave. My apologies if you were using the former.
Examples?

Generally speaking, western Europeans have nowhere near the level of blind patriotism Americans have. Are western Europeans "weak"? If so, have western European nations "fallen"? My visits there seem to show western Europe is a pretty nice place to live.

Seems to me that too much arrogance and a feeling of invincibility (typical hallmarks of patriotism) are what causes nations to fall. (See for example the British and Roman empires of yore, and potentially the U.S. of the future.)
Increased levels of patriotism at home only seems to rile up the barbarians. See a connection?
Glad you asked.

Too much patriotism can cloud a country's judgment and prevent it from objectively evaluating certain decisions and policies. A group mentality takes root: "We as Country X-ers can't be wrong because we are Country X and we're great!" Add a religious dimension to this ("God is on our side against those heathens and barbarians!") and you really have a problem.

As an immediate example, too much patriotism can lead a country into a needless war and blind it to the fact that the results are disastrous, causing the deaths of thousands and wasting billions (if not trillions) of dollars in a doomed effort. It can also create a dangerous climate where someone daring to point out that, "Gee, maybe we should reconsider what is going on," is accused of not supporting the troops and of being "unpatriotic."

Too much patriotism squelches dissent and a free exchange of ideas. Good ideas get lost in the process and are drowned out by "patriotic" ideas, even if those turn out to be unwise. It eliminates introspection and self-critical evaluation -- essential elements for an entity that wants to improve itself and learn from its mistakes in order to move forward.

THAT is what can cause a nation to fall.

Thanks, but I believe that you may be referring to patriotic ‘Zealots’ which are not unlike religious ‘Zealots’.
The fringe of any ‘belief’ whether it be religion and/or patriotism is dangerous. To me, being a ‘Patriot’ means many things, but most of all it is upholding our constitution and defending it if necessary.
I’ve been both a hippie and a soldier. As a hippie, I defended and participated in civil unrest against the VN war. As a soldier I defended our country in the VN war as mandated by our constitution.

IMHO, I was a ‘Patriot’ in both situations as I was defending my ‘country’ in ‘both’ situations’.

Maybe the definition of being a ‘Patriot’ has changed in the last 30 years, as the use of the word has been bastardized/manipulated by our politicians today into something that it wasn’t then.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot

B) UT

 

[EastUS]

Maybe the definition of being a ‘Patriot’ has changed in the last 30 years, as the use of the word has been bastardized/manipulated by our politicians today into something that it wasn’t then.
[

Yup...it's an epithet for the Left, and a "Harrumph..are you with us?" for the Right. The essentials that you covered vis a vis the Constituion, and the willingness to defend it, and our nation whenever needed, pretty well sums up my "take". National "Will" and "focus" are simply verbal derivatives of those basic tenants for me.

 

[Dog Wonder]

I pledge allegiance to US Airways and that mock flag on the tail.

As long as the flag is desecrated for commercial and political purposes, it means nothing.

 

[pitguy]

What is the IQ of a towbar?

 

[tug_slug]

I haven't said the pledge of allegiance since the 8th grade. Do they actually do this at union meetings?

Lets not forget about all the men and women who sacrificed their lives to give you the choice as to whether to stand or not. 8th grade? That something to be proud of. :down:

 

[JS]

Lets not forget about all the men and women who sacrificed their lives to give you the choice as to whether to stand or not. 8th grade? That something to be proud of. :down:

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Carbon_Fiber]

Well we have a confirmation that it was indeed the legendary jackass lead known in PIT Maintenance as TOWBAR.

Who is this "Towbar" character? Is he the next OOT?

 

[ussnark]

Lets not forget about all the men and women who sacrificed their lives to give you the choice as to whether to stand or not. 8th grade? That something to be proud of. :down:

and who were those men and women?

Don't tell this is that stupid military argument, again.............

 

[LCC_#1]

like it or not our /(my) country was founded on god

No, those that came here came for an array of reasons...including religion, but all had one thing in common...freedom... freedom to be, including freedom to CHOOSE the God you want to worship or to not worship...the freedom to be a Christian or a Jew or not be religious at all. I love this country dearly, but am offended when people rewrite history in the name of THEIR God.

Like it or not, our (MY) country was founded on the basis of freedom. God, religion, patriotism, financial opportunities, flag waving and the pledge of choice are the benefactors of freedom...NOT requirements. And YES, I have a flag, YES, I sing the Star Spangle Banner WITH my hat off and YES, with my hand over my heart. Am I a christian? No. Do I believe in God? Not the same way as others? If I were not a loyal American, I wouldn't live here. That I live here, pay taxes, and vote gives me the right to either say the pledge or not say the pledge, but to call anyone.. including myself..unpatrotic or somehow anti-troops or unAmerican because we may not choose to say a pledge is just shallow. Nobody poo poos you when you don't singing the national anthem. Of course most American don't even know all the words.

 

[freedom]

That I live here, pay taxes, and vote gives me the right to either say the pledge or not say the pledge, but to call anyone.. including myself..unpatrotic or somehow anti-troops or unAmerican because we may not choose to say a pledge is just shallow.

You have the RIGHT and those who think less of those who don't say the pledge ALSO have the RIGHT to think so . It almost seems as if your side of the debate wishes to strip folks like myself who form an opnion of someone based on their actions the right from doing so .

 

[LCC_#1]

You have the RIGHT and those who think less of those who don't say the pledge ALSO have the RIGHT to think so . It almost seems as if your side of the debate wishes to strip folks like myself who form an opnion of someone based on their actions the right from doing so .

Well, Freedom, you couldn't be further from the truth. The problem is that when anyone states an opinion different than folks LIKE you...not necessarily you, we are demonized! That is the difference.

 

[freedom]

Well, Freedom, you couldn't be further from the truth. The problem is that when anyone states an opinion different than folks LIKE you...not necessarily you, we are demonized! That is the difference.

well demonized doesn't sound like a legal term ... i hate to break it to ya but life can be harsh , people can have some pretty mean opnions , but as long as their not breaking any laws they have the right to them . As much as you make out the defenders of the flag to seem like the oppresive one's it's also the people doing the accusing who come off to me just as opressive .

Look don't we make people who come to our county and want to become citizens take the pledge of allegence ? Have we as a people grown so self centered and lazy that when it comes time to stand up for not longer than 30 seconds mumble a few words and place our hand on our heart that we are unable to do so ?

If we can require people who want to be americans to take the pledge , then i see nothing wrong with looking with disdian upon americans who were born here yet won't do so .