LET THE BLAME GAME BEGIN!

[700UW]

Funny the AFA, IAM(M&R) and TWU kept their pensions during bankrupcty #1 and fleet got the IAMNPF.

 

[flygirl74]

Before this turns into the usual "who saved who" or "seniority or bust" or "east vs. west" b!tchfest...I have a question. When is the deadline for upholding/dropping the N. award? Bueller????

 

[brokenwrench]

Funny the AFA, IAM(M&R) and TWU kept their pensions during bankrupcty #1 and fleet got the IAMNPF.

What is the purpose of your post?

 

[Hawkhunter]

You guys keep letting these idiots run your LEC's and they will most certainly cost you everything!!


Oh come on guys you are going to ruin everything. I already got a windfall so dont ruin my chances of getting a good contract since I couldnt get hired at an airline that was worth a s%$t. I know I run my mouth like a spoiled brat and I would never talk that way to your face . Lets work together and if you do I wont say " practice cactis" or call you my "gear ####" anymore. Thank you very much easties love, AWA320.

Sorry to tell you this AWA320 it is worth everything idiot.

 

[Phoenix]

And as far as your paycuts and retiree healthcare, I do believe you pilots have not seen a concession you did not like and vote for.

Well maybe they voted for concessions on the first try because ALPA made sure the pilots weren't confused before the first vote so they didn't have to revote.

 

[ussnark]

700UW,

Bill Pollock had no vote over the contract change that permitted DB Plan termination and replacing it with a DC Plan. Only MEC Representatives can vote on this or any other issue.

Little nit. Bill is a tie-breaker, not that it mattered in that case.

Without the termination of DB Plan ALPA’s financial and legal advisors said the company could not emerge from bankruptcy, thus, the MEC decided it was better to continue to "live for another day" than to have the airline liquidated. Does that make sense? According to eveyr ALPA advisor It was the options were either "No Compay/No DB Plan" or a "Company/No DB Plan".

That is not what they said. Only one, Michael "I only get paid if I get a deal" Glanzer said that. Abrams said something completely different but pilots were running around with their hair on fire and not listening. Water under the bridge, now.

In regard to your comment of “and as far as your paycuts and retiree healthcare, I do believe you pilots have not seen a concession you did not like and vote for,â€￾ I believe every reasonable person on this board recognizes nobody likes a concession, but every union at every legacy airline took concessions because they believed it was better than the alternative.

No, the moronic majority voted "for" because they believed implicitly a few idiots on the MEC and two misquoted "advisors". They were told to vote "for" and without question, they did.

 

[b737fo]

Before this turns into the usual "who saved who" or "seniority or bust" or "east vs. west" b!tchfest...I have a question. When is the deadline for upholding/dropping the N. award? Bueller????

I don't think there is an answer. The move by ALPA National to sit on the arbitration decision before presenting it to the company as an integrated seniority list is unusual. It appears that ALPA is treading in some dangerous waters. The West will have you believe that there is no mechanism for dropping binding arbitration results while the East thinks that the integrated list created violates basic tenants of ALPA merger policy. Either way I am sure this will not be over for a long period of time as each side will exhaust all resources to defend there view.

 

[ClueByFour]

I believe every reasonable person on this board recognizes nobody likes a concession, but every union at every legacy airline took concessions because they believed it was better than the alternative.

That's why the company, ALPA National, HP MEC, and everyone else knows that the East side won't burn 'er down over the Nicolau award.

 

[EastUS]

That's why the company, ALPA National, HP MEC, and everyone else knows that the East side won't burn 'er down over the Nicolau award.

Repeat that to yourself enough times, and your evident anxiety will likely diminish somewhat........... :blink:

 

[songbirdstew]

Walk a mile in another man's shoes (proverb)

I absolutely agree with you there. As an F/A, we are so very fortunate to have had the DOH upheld by AFA MECs nationwide. While I certainly am no better than a west F/A, I would be royally peeved if he/she had only 4 years and transferred to my base and was now SR. to me with my 21 years for bidding, vacation, etc.
Seniority is the only thing we have left that means anything and now this award has taken that away ?
My last F/O was 250 away from Captain in LGA and he has now moved back 1600 seniority numbers....how would you feel if that happened to you ? So I reiterate...you need to walk a mile in another man's shoes....what if that was YOU that just moved down 1600 numbers ? How would YOU feel ? Bet it wouldn't be so fair then.

 

[b737fo]

I absolutely agree with you there. As an F/A, we are so very fortunate to have had the DOH upheld by AFA MECs nationwide. While I certainly am no better than a west F/A, I would be royally peeved if he/she had only 4 years and transferred to my base and was now SR. to me with my 21 years for bidding, vacation, etc.
Seniority is the only thing we have left that means anything and now this award has taken that away ?
My last F/O was 250 away from Captain in LGA and he has now moved back 1600 seniority numbers....how would you feel if that happened to you ? So I reiterate...you need to walk a mile in another man's shoes....what if that was YOU that just moved down 1600 numbers ? How would YOU feel ? Bet it wouldn't be so fair then.

Actually I think it is pretty fair that a mid level CA or FO retains their relative seniority through out a merger. I think it is unfair that a pilot just back from furlough would be able to jump ahead of pilots who brought CA jobs to a merged airline.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I think it is unfair that a pilot just back from furlough would be able to jump ahead of pilots who brought CA jobs to a merged airline.

You brought CA jobs in PHL, PIT, LGA, CLT etc?

Thats where the furloughed guys are returning to and flying from.

No Bump No Flush means no furloughed pilot would ever displace an active one.

 

[ussnark]

Actually I think it is pretty fair that a mid level CA or FO retains their relative seniority through out a merger. I think it is unfair that a pilot just back from furlough would be able to jump ahead of pilots who brought CA jobs to a merged airline.

The west operation had a lot of excess pilots but not jobs (compared to the east operation). While the "west" brought a few captains, by east standards those were excess compared to the number of captain jobs west brought.

Point of reference. Were the east operation to have the same number and rules for vacation days as the west, the east would have to bring on some 620 more pilots than the 2500 or so that they had, an increase of some 25%.

That means some pilot 20% from the bottom, number 2000, would now be 36% from the bottom. Where would you like to be "slotted in", 20% from the bottom or 36% from the bottom?

You want relative positions? You have to start with the same contracts. The Nicholau "award" violated even that very elementary bit of logic. You cannot even state it was a "relative position" award.

A giant windfall went to the west operation, just because the lists were not normalized for contractual rules. There are plenty of other factors that can be shown to have granted a windfall (ignoring the MDA guys, for one), any one of which causes the "award" to have violated ALPA merger policy.

Another issue.

I hear east pilots talk about "losing x number of positions". It might be more understandable if you take your original DOH and compare it with your new effective DOH based on the westies around you. To me, it sounds more effective if I hear that you were virtually furloughed for twelve years, or eighteen years. In other words, your twelve (or eighteen) years of work went for nothing. Or turn it around and say some (by name) west operation pilot gained a windfall of twelve (or eighteen) years.

 

[traderjake]

Repeat that to yourself enough times, and your evident anxiety will likely diminish somewhat........... :blink:

I'm an East pilot and I say you're not going to burn the house down.

 

[michael707767]

My last F/O was 250 away from Captain in LGA and he has now moved back 1600 seniority numbers....how would you feel if that happened to you ? So I reiterate...you need to walk a mile in another man's shoes....what if that was YOU that just moved down 1600 numbers ? How would YOU feel ?

It would depend. If I moved down 1600 numbers at an airline that grew 4000 numbers by a merger, then I came out alright, didn't I? Further, if you moved down by 1600 numbers, then odds are pretty good that a very large number of the 1600 that came in on top of you brought in captains jobs. Jobs that you now have the opportunity to move up too one day.

Here would be my question to your FO. What percentage were you on the USAir list, and what percentage are you on the combined list? Second, by a percentage, how far were you from upgrading before.....and after.

To tell me you moved down 1600 numbers is not the whole story.