Managers ARE going to F/A training

[Duke787]

I agree. And AA would not want to keep it secret. To the contrary, AA will probably announce its plans very loudly when the time is right. Just like the posturing and sabre-rattling APFA is doing with the results of the strike vote, AA would want APFA and all AA F/As to know full well that it is gearing up for a big battle.

Until AA starts hiring replacement FA's, I think that tells us the company will offer an exceptable TA to the APFA. But the way the APFA president keeps saying they want full restoration of their last contract.

 

[Duke787]

First of all, they could only impose rules that were in their final offer and no where has AA proposed a 114 hr month. Try up to 95. As far as 114 hr rule for Southwest, I would love to see a WN bid sheet. If they were to schedule their flight attendants that much then they would be working almost 20 days per month which I am very skeptical. The fact that you gather your information from AA negotiations is only giving you one side of the picture. We at AA are able to fly as many hours in a month or as little as we want. Several flight attendants fly way more then 114 hours because all you have to have is ten 24 hour rests at your home base. I think all this conjecture about replacements is way overblown because in my opinion the company and union are not that far apart. We WILL be scheduled to fly more hours per month. The only question is how many. My guess is that the difference will be split between 77 and 95.

The voice of reason, well said.

 

[Skymess]

Ya Bob, he does. We operate 767's with 9 FA's, USAir operates 767's with 5, if our staffing goes below 9 FA's get min staffing pay.

Staffing levels are dictated by level of service. We operate some 767's with 6 or 7 also. It depends on the market.

 

[Duke787]

Staffing levels are dictated by level of service. We operate some 767's with 6 or 7 also. It depends on the market.

I believe you are referring to the 767-200's that do dom for the 6 or 7 FA's, not the 300's that go ER which get 9. The majority of our 767's go ER.

 

[Skymess]

This is the first of three videos disputing AA's cost estimates for flight attendants. You can find the other two on Youtube.

For the most part, the APFA has not publicly discussed specific issues. We as members still do not know exactly what the APFA is asking for in regards to pay, sick,vacation, and work rules. We do know what has been mutually agreed upon as far as reserve and other small items. I just flew with a negotiator and he said this has been done purposely. So many variables change throughout the course of negotiation so that if you tell the membership one thing then you better stick to it. I get a kick out of posters who claim the union is asking for too much. I would love for you to provide that "inside information" because it would be interesting to see. Yes there has been a lot of rhetoric about restore and more and the company offering concessions but from the unions camp you will notice no specific proposals.

Yes. Those of you who get all of your news from the AA negotiations site should print stuff now and compare it to a final TA. It will not be the same so why should APFA print false information that will confuse and anger their membership if it isn't in the final contract?

As far as scheduled hours go, it is more complicated then it appears. I have spoken to a Continental flight attendant and even though they are able to be scheduled up to 92.5 hours a month, there are all kinds of checks and balances. Only a certain percentage of trips can be scheduled this high. And those trips must be pure. That is what you are going to see at AA. I can see them saying that JFK-NRT will now be 4 trips a month vs. 3 so in the end you will be flying nearly 100 hrs a month but still be flying only 12 days. What I am hoping the union is looking to prevent are multi leg trip on domestic where you work your butt off with long duty days and several legs and end up working 18 days to get 95 hours. IF this is what they are doing at Delta then they can have it. Those fools haven't had their say since day one and maybe one day they will get a backbone and say that enough is enough. Hopefully that day will come sooner rather then later.

United and NW have always been able to schedule higher time line months but it is done on a quarterly basis. They can't schedule every month at the higher amounts, only certain months.

The 59 hour work month at AA is pure AA management fantasy. I fly between 90 to 100 and know many people who fly between 120 and 140 a month. Very few people fly under 80. I'd like to see how AA is running that creative math. They are probably averaging the zero hour schedules of the FAs who are on long term overage leaves. That would be my guess.

 

[Skymess]

I believe you are referring to the 767-200's that do dom for the 6 or 7 FA's, not the 300's that go ER which get 9. The majority of our 767's go ER.

I am actually talking about 200's and 300's. I would say you are correct that the majority of our 300's do ER but we have a significant amount of domestic and caribbean flying done on both airplanes daily. If they lowered service levels AA too could staff less people for International Flagship flights. It's a combination of things that dictate the staffing levels both on AA's side and the union's. I think the company realizes that it would be detrimental for the company to attempt to lower staffing levels while retaining the same amount of service without a yes vote to a TA on a CBA first. The flight attendants wouldn't stand for it.

 

[FWAAA]

The 59 hour work month at AA is pure AA management fantasy. I fly between 90 to 100 and know many people who fly between 120 and 140 a month. Very few people fly under 80. I'd like to see how AA is running that creative math. They are probably averagin the zero hour schedules of the FAs who are on long term overage leaves. That would be my guess.

You may be right - that the numbers put out by AA are fantasy, but this chart appears to say otherwise:

http://www.aanegotiations.com/documents/AA%20FA%20Charts_4%2024%2009.pdf

The chart is, admitedly, dated (April 08 to Mar 09) but "includes all regular flight attendants on active status at least one month in the year." AA really should prepare a chart with more recent data. From the chart, 81.2% of FAs flew an average of 80 hours or less during that 12 month period. Only 10% flew more than 90 hours a month on average during that period. Only 123 FAs flew more than 120 hours per month on average during that 12 month period. Sure, there are some extreme high-time fliers, but my guess is that most don't do it month after month after month. Very few do it for 12 months in a row.

Even if the 59 average flight hours is complete fantasy, the fact remains that DL can schedule FAs for 100 hours a month and AA is limited by the contract to 77dom and 82int, fewer hours than any of its competitors. AA needn't get agreement from the APFA to schedule the FAs for 120 or 110 or even 100 hours each month to remain competitive, but perhaps 90 or 95 isn't out of the question.

As to 767 staffing levels, Bear96's point is that your contract provides for staffing in excess of FAA minimums and if AA hires replacements, it would not have to staff 9 (or even 6 or 7) unless AA's approved evacuation plan requires more than the FAA min ratio of one per 50.

 

[Skymess]

You may be right - that the numbers put out by AA are fantasy, but this chart appears to say otherwise:

http://www.aanegotiations.com/documents/AA%20FA%20Charts_4%2024%2009.pdf

The chart is, admitedly, dated (April 08 to Mar 09) but "includes all regular flight attendants on active status at least one month in the year." AA really should prepare a chart with more recent data. From the chart, 81.2% of FAs flew an average of 80 hours or less during that 12 month period. Only 10% flew more than 90 hours a month on average during that period. Only 123 FAs flew more than 120 hours per month on average during that 12 month period. Sure, there are some extreme high-time fliers, but my guess is that most don't do it month after month after month. Very few do it for 12 months in a row.

That proves it then. It includes those on leaves. Including people who are on leaves who have only worked 1 month bring the numbers way down. I maintain that our flight attendants don't average 59 hours. The really high time people that I know who fly 140 hours do it consistently 12 months out of the year. I used to do some people's schedules who flew that much and was amazed they were able to maintain that amount. I sometimes have difficulty with 90 and shake my head thinking about them flying so many hours. I guess you do what you have to when you have bigger bills and/or bigger families.

Even if the 59 average flight hours is complete fantasy, the fact remains that DL can schedule FAs for 100 hours a month and AA is limited by the contract to 77dom and 82int, fewer hours than any of its competitors. AA needn't get agreement from the APFA to schedule the FAs for 120 or 110 or even 100 hours each month to remain competitive, but perhaps 90 or 95 isn't out of the question.

Can Delta schedule 100 hours every month and do they? Other legacy carriers have the ability but only on certain months and a certain amount of schedules for each base. AA wants the ability to be able to schedule us to 95 but with no guarantee they would. They would average higher months when they needed them and lower months when they didn't. They would mix all of our lines so we wouldn't have straight London, LA, Rome, Miami, whatever. You would go wherever they wanted as long as they could fit their amount of hours in. We would layoff a bunch of people which would make the main reason we do this job....flexibility....disappear. I fly an average of 90-100 hours a month. I sometimes load up one month to 120 and fly 85 the next/60 and 140 the next/ or a mix of things like that. If we all had to fly a certain amount our days of scheduling flexibility would either dwindle or disappear.

As to 767 staffing levels, Bear96's point is that your contract provides for staffing in excess of FAA minimums and if AA hires replacements, it would not have to staff 9 (or even 6 or 7) unless AA's approved evacuation plan requires more than the FAA min ratio of one per 50.

Correct. If AA wanted to staff the flights they would just need 4 for a 767 200, 5 for a 300, and 8 for a 777. British Airways was doing that with their replacements.

 

[jimntx]

The really high time people that I know who fly 140 hours do it consistently 12 months out of the year. I used to do some people's schedules who flew that much and was amazed they were able to maintain that amount. I sometimes have difficulty with 90 and shake my head thinking about them flying so many hours. I guess you do what you have to when you have bigger bills and/or bigger families.

AMEN, sister. I count my blessings everyday that I don't have to fly high time. I tried one time when I was based at DFW. I flew a big honkin 105 hours that month. That is WAY too much like working for a living. I have a friend at STL that has 3 small children and a deadbeat of an ex-husband, and she lives in the Dallas area because her mother can be her babysitter. She has no choice but to pick up any trip she can force onto her schedule. Someone that young should not have to look that tired most of the time.

The thing that interests me is how do you get that many hours on your schedule in the first place? With my many years in the computer business, I prided myself on my trip trading abilities. However, with the schedules that AA builds for us, I don't see how you get that many hours (140) on your schedule without creating a legality. I just know that some people can do it.

P.S. I don't think the company is counting the people on leave in that avg. hours statistic. However, I would bet cash money that they ARE counting the people who are "active" and bid every month, but then drop all or most of their trips.

 

[jimntx]

I would love to see a decoder ring so I could make an apples to apples comparison. Otherwise, I have to rely on the AA negotiations website.

Do you want that decoder ring sized for the ring finger or the pinkie? It's really not that difficult if you look at "pure" flying--the time and air miles distance from one city to another.

1. Most of us are paid by the hour. The hour starts when the door closes and the brake is released at the departure gate. The hour ends when the brake is set and the door opens at the arrival gate. (Unfortunate what happened to the 777 at DFW the other day, but I digress.) There are other issues--such as, ATC holds, etc--but let's not quibble.
2. WN flight attendants are paid by the "trip." A "trip" is defined as the air miles from DAL to HOU--WN's original and only route in the good ole days. According to the website I used, that is 239 air miles. EXCUSE ME! Is that quibbling I hear over in the back corner of the room?
3. According to Continental's website, a flight from IAH to PHX takes approximately 2 hours, 45 minutes and is 1010 air miles. Let's assume that the time and distance from HOU to PHX is the same. So, on WN that would be 4.23 trips. I don't know, nor do I care, if they round up or down or pay the exact fraction of a trip. (OK. The next quibbler will be forcibly ejected from the room.)
4. A top of scale domestic AA f/a makes $46/hr (see point one for start/end of hour) base pay. I don't know what the WN "per trip" top of scale is, but if you multiplied that by 4.23 then divided by 2.75 hours, it converts to over $50/hr.

As I said there are other things that enter in, but this is the basic pay comparison. IIRC in their new contract, WN f/as get something for the time on the ground while they are cleaning the a/c--I don't think it is flight pay, but it's something. We do not get paid at AA for cleaning the a/c on through flights.

Any other questions? Ask your mother. It was her idea.

 

[Skymess]

The thing that interests me is how do you get that many hours on your schedule in the first place? With my many years in the computer business, I prided myself on my trip trading abilities. However, with the schedules that AA builds for us, I don't see how you get that many hours (140) on your schedule without creating a legality. I just know that some people can do it.

It's a giant puzzle. It takes a lot of figuring to get just the right line up of trips to fit right because when you fly that many hours you have to count time in between trips as DOs. You really need to have a few people's schedules to work with and have some flexible people willing to switch out what they have to make it work for all of them. Double trip trading all of it is a challenge for the very last trip to replace the DOs.
It's easier if they have very high time trips with an early eough arrival. All of the trips that arrive after midnight count as an extra day. The people who fly that much usually don't have real days off. It is kind of just rest periods in between trips.

 

[Duke787]

Are the numbers from the AAnegotiation page accurate as far as pay and hours?

http://www.aanegotiations.com/apfa-article-3-compensation.asp

 

[kirkpatrick]

The per hour rates are accurate, but one must be wary of statements like "59 hrs per month." A 12 hr duty day may consist of only 5 hrs of "hard time," for example, but it's still a 12 hr day and would generate 6 pay hours. Also, 59 hrs per month factors in vacation and sick leave. If an office worker working a five day week figures in vacation and sick time, they're not working a five day week, either.

MK

 

[jimntx]

Are the numbers from the AAnegotiation page accurate as far as pay and hours?

http://www.aanegotiations.com/apfa-article-3-compensation.asp

Also, I noticed that the company can get very specific when they are talking hourly pay rates. Did you find anything about benefit costs other than percentage comparison to other "large industry?" Here's some specifics for you...

Along with a proposed 9.9% 5-year increase for a top-of-scale, 15-year flight attendant (and, for that matter are you comfortable that there will be no inflation over the next 5 years eating into that 9.9%?), the company also proposes more than doubling the cost of health insurance immediately.

Employee only medical coverage would increase from $468/yr to $1,080/yr.
Employee+1 medical would increase from $930/yr to $2,160/yr.
Employee+2 would increase from $1,231/yr to $3,240/yr.

So, the first year, a TOS flight attendant flying 82 hours/month would see an annual pay increase of 2 %, or $925.
If the flight attendant has no dependents, their medical would increase $612. So, after paying their increased medical cost, they would have a monthly pre-tax increase of approx. $26!!! That is not even 1 hour of pay for me and I am not at top of scale by any means. I would gross considerably less than the $26.

If that flight attendant has two dependents or a spouse and one dependent, their medical insurance would increase $2009 immediately. This would be a monthly pre-tax decrease of over $90.

 

[Duke787]

Also, I noticed that the company can get very specific when they are talking hourly pay rates. Did you find anything about benefit costs other than percentage comparison to other "large industry?" Here's some specifics for you...

Along with a proposed 9.9% 5-year increase for a top-of-scale, 15-year flight attendant (and, for that matter are you comfortable that there will be no inflation over the next 5 years eating into that 9.9%?), the company also proposes more than doubling the cost of health insurance immediately.

Employee only medical coverage would increase from $468/yr to $1,080/yr.
Employee+1 medical would increase from $930/yr to $2,160/yr.
Employee+2 would increase from $1,231/yr to $3,240/yr.

So, the first year, a TOS flight attendant flying 82 hours/month would see an annual pay increase of 2 %, or $925.
If the flight attendant has no dependents, their medical would increase $612. So, after paying their increased medical cost, they would have a monthly pre-tax increase of approx. $26!!! That is not even 1 hour of pay for me and I am not at top of scale by any means. I would gross considerably less than the $26.

If that flight attendant has two dependents or a spouse and one dependent, their medical insurance would increase $2009 immediately. This would be a monthly pre-tax decrease of over $90.

Thank you for the info, as I understand it you are the highest paid and work the least, but your insurance is going up. Do you know how much he other airline FA's are paying for health insurance, I heard the UAL still doesn't pay anything for health insurance.