Morale at American Airlines

[eolesen]

The problem lies in the fact that we have nonairline people running an airline

Maybe I'm just in a mood to argue, but how about some proof to back up your "fact", Ken?....

I don't see one in the bunch running the company:

1. Arpey's entire professional career (29 years) has been with AA.
2. Horton joined AA in 1985, and with the exception of the 4 years when he was CFO of AT&T, has also spent 21 years at AA.
3. Dolara started out in either reservations or sales, and 43 years of service,all of it with AA and Trans Caribbean (he came to AA thru the merger).
4. Del Valle started out as a flight attendant, and also has 25+ years (if not more), all of it with AA.
5. Goren, the new CFO, has 25 years with American.
6. Kennedy, the head lawyer, has been with AA for 26 years.
7. Kreeger, the guy heading up inflight, Res, and AA.com also has 25 years with AA. Not sure if he worked anywhere else before AA.
8. Vahidi, the head of marketing & planning, started with AA right out of school, and has 10 years. He also was at AT&T with Horton and another tech company for around six years.
9. Ream started out as an A&P for Evergreen, and has worked almost 30 years in the industry (he has somewhere between 10-15 years with AA).
10. Redding has 38 years in aviation - eight as a pilot in the military, and 30 years working for various airlines, 7 of those with AA.
11. Brundage is also a pilot, was head of the MEC for one airline before going to work directly for ALPA, and now has 11 years with AA.
12. Ris, the head lobbyist, started out with the CAB (yes, he's been around a while), worked as outside counsel for AA for 13 years, and has been on AA payroll for 14 years. 27 years combined working for AA, plus eight years working with aviation law for the government, including the very Deregulation Bill y'all despise so much.
13. Monte Ford, the CIO, and he's been with AA for 10 years.

A combined 253 years of experience (if not more since I don't have exact start dates for all of them).

11 of the 13 (84%) of them started their career at AA or another airline. 6 started in Finance, 5 started out on the front lines, and at least 2 held union cards.

So exactly which non-airline people are you referring to, Ken?


Eagle is in a similar state:

A) Garton started with AA in 1984, and has 24 real years of service (plus 2 years with Continental express).
2) Hutchison has 21 years with AMR
3) Cleveland has 28+ years of Navy experience, primarily aviation operations, logistics and overhaul. Hard to say he's not an aviation person...
4) Hazy has 31 years with AMR

 

[midnights]

Maybe I'm just in a mood to argue, but how about some proof to back up your "fact", Ken?....

I don't see one in the bunch running the company:

1. Arpey's entire professional career (29 years) has been with AA.
2. Horton joined AA in 1985, and with the exception of the 4 years when he was CFO of AT&T, has also spent 21 years at AA.
3. Dolara started out in either reservations or sales, and 43 years of service,all of it with AA and Trans Caribbean (he came to AA thru the merger).
4. Del Valle started out as a flight attendant, and also has 25+ years (if not more), all of it with AA.
5. Goren, the new CFO, has 25 years with American.
6. Kennedy, the head lawyer, has been with AA for 26 years.
7. Kreeger, the guy heading up inflight, Res, and AA.com also has 25 years with AA. Not sure if he worked anywhere else before AA.
8. Vahidi, the head of marketing & planning, started with AA right out of school, and has 10 years. He also was at AT&T with Horton and another tech company for around six years.
9. Ream started out as an A&P for Evergreen, and has worked almost 30 years in the industry (he has somewhere between 10-15 years with AA).
10. Redding has 38 years in aviation - eight as a pilot in the military, and 30 years working for various airlines, 7 of those with AA.
11. Brundage is also a pilot, was head of the MEC for one airline before going to work directly for ALPA, and now has 11 years with AA.
12. Ris, the head lobbyist, started out with the CAB (yes, he's been around a while), worked as outside counsel for AA for 13 years, and has been on AA payroll for 14 years. 27 years combined working for AA, plus eight years working with aviation law for the government, including the very Deregulation Bill y'all despise so much.
13. Monte Ford, the CIO, and he's been with AA for 10 years.

A combined 253 years of experience (if not more since I don't have exact start dates for all of them).

11 of the 13 (84%) of them started their career at AA or another airline. 6 started in Finance, 5 started out on the front lines, and at least 2 held union cards.

So exactly which non-airline people are you referring to, Ken?


Eagle is in a similar state:

A) Garton started with AA in 1984, and has 24 real years of service (plus 2 years with Continental express).
2) Hutchison has 21 years with AMR
3) Cleveland has 28+ years of Navy experience, primarily aviation operations, logistics and overhaul. Hard to say he's not an aviation person...
4) Hazy has 31 years with AMR

You would think with all that experience SOMEONE would know how to run an airline and make money, you know, without the help of outside consultants........

 

[eolesen]

You would think with all that experience SOMEONE would know how to run an airline and make money, you know, without the help of outside consultants........

Maybe, but sometimes you need an outsider to tell the Emperor he has no clothes.

You guys know I'm a consultant. There are times I get paid to confirm what people already know. And there are times I get paid to tell people how it's done at other companies, because their executives have spent their entire career with one company, and all they know is how it's been done there. They don't have the outside point of view to bring best/worst practices to the discussion.

I know you think there are too many consultants making decisions, but the fact is we don't make decisions.

We look at a given situation as outsiders, and propose options and alternatives to the status quo.

If you're not seeing results, it's entirely possible they're getting bad advice, but more often than not (at least from my extremely biased point of view), it's because the company didn't/couldn't agree ("of course the Emperor has clothes") or they didn't do what the consultants advised them to do ("the Emperor really didn't like being told he didn't have clothes, so let's just tell him he does and that we were wrong").

 

[Imjustsayin]

You would think with all that experience SOMEONE would know how to run an airline and make money, you know, without the help of outside consultants........

I guess the American Airlines management team should have just lined up and gone through bankruptcy like all of the other airlines' management who "knew how to run an airline" - jeez really?

 

[Hopeful]

I don't place too much credence in where the experience comes from. Look at Ford's Alan Mulally. He came from Boeing and is doing a pretty good job at Ford. Maybe we need a CEO from another industry who can think outside the box.

Having said that, it is still important to have managers who came from the ranks in certain management positions to get that "feel" for how the place really operates.

These days, it doesn't matter whether or not the management team has "airline" experience in their blood. At the end of the day, when you are losing money or just not that profitable, they simply blame labor costs.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Maybe I'm just in a mood to argue, but how about some proof to back up your "fact", Ken?....

I don't see one in the bunch running the company:

1. Arpey's entire professional career (29 years) has been with AA.
2. Horton joined AA in 1985, and with the exception of the 4 years when he was CFO of AT&T, has also spent 21 years at AA.
3. Dolara started out in either reservations or sales, and 43 years of service,all of it with AA and Trans Caribbean (he came to AA thru the merger).
4. Del Valle started out as a flight attendant, and also has 25+ years (if not more), all of it with AA.
5. Goren, the new CFO, has 25 years with American.
6. Kennedy, the head lawyer, has been with AA for 26 years.
7. Kreeger, the guy heading up inflight, Res, and AA.com also has 25 years with AA. Not sure if he worked anywhere else before AA.
8. Vahidi, the head of marketing & planning, started with AA right out of school, and has 10 years. He also was at AT&T with Horton and another tech company for around six years.
9. Ream started out as an A&P for Evergreen, and has worked almost 30 years in the industry (he has somewhere between 10-15 years with AA).
10. Redding has 38 years in aviation - eight as a pilot in the military, and 30 years working for various airlines, 7 of those with AA.
11. Brundage is also a pilot, was head of the MEC for one airline before going to work directly for ALPA, and now has 11 years with AA.
12. Ris, the head lobbyist, started out with the CAB (yes, he's been around a while), worked as outside counsel for AA for 13 years, and has been on AA payroll for 14 years. 27 years combined working for AA, plus eight years working with aviation law for the government, including the very Deregulation Bill y'all despise so much.
13. Monte Ford, the CIO, and he's been with AA for 10 years.

A combined 253 years of experience (if not more since I don't have exact start dates for all of them).

11 of the 13 (84%) of them started their career at AA or another airline. 6 started in Finance, 5 started out on the front lines, and at least 2 held union cards.

So exactly which non-airline people are you referring to, Ken?


Eagle is in a similar state:

A) Garton started with AA in 1984, and has 24 real years of service (plus 2 years with Continental express).
2) Hutchison has 21 years with AMR
3) Cleveland has 28+ years of Navy experience, primarily aviation operations, logistics and overhaul. Hard to say he's not an aviation person...
4) Hazy has 31 years with AMR

Eric,

I should have been more specific. You are correct with your facts, and I don't feel like you are arguing. My point was that the people running AA aren't "airline people" they are greedy people. C.R. Smith had a good working relation with his employees. Crandall, although he was a tough SOB he was OUR SOB, would NEVER have done what Arpey and Gang have done. To run an airline. or ay company for that matter, having people in management do what is right both morally and on principles can only create a trusting, driven work force. We don't have that here at AA. We are lied to and disrespected. Because someone has worked at an airline for years doesn't necessarily make them qualified to do their job.

 

[telebender1956]

I guess the American Airlines management team should have just lined up and gone through bankruptcy like all of the other airlines' management who "knew how to run an airline" - jeez really?

Exactly! Mr. Warren Buffet,who did not get his wealth by being stupid stated in 2005 that AMR was foolish for not filing chapter 11 in 2003. AA could have dumped a whole lot of their debt and re-negoiated the labor agreements and be a much stronger Company today.Instead, the power control freaks[AA Management] would not relinquish control of AA to a Chapter 11 Judge and we have an Airline just limping along losing a few BILLION DOLLARS since 2003.The Management opted instead to get into the employees pockets to compensate for their incompetence.
The current AMR management are JUNKIES ADDICTED TO CONCESSIONS and the TWU is more than willing to sell us out for monthly dues.[Look at the TA we just REJECTED]

The SKY IS FALLING and it is AA who is going to get smashed by the competition. SWA and AirTran combined will own the domestic market and drive AA to an International Route System with a much SMALLER airline.

 

[will fix for food]

Duke,

I think if AA wanted to spin off O/H they would have done it already.

If AMR wanted to spin off Eagle they would have done it already.

Oh wait , they are.

 

[midnights]

I guess the American Airlines management team should have just lined up and gone through bankruptcy like all of the other airlines' management who "knew how to run an airline" - jeez really?

Yea, really. Maybe they should have, but this leadership has not impressed me one bit over the last few years. I see thousands of dollars wasted every day at DFW, I hear from management that it's my fault AA is in the crapper. I wasn't hired to run the airline, just to fix the airplanes, but I've lost all faith in those that were hired to run AA. The decisions that are made are no way to run an airline or any other business for that matter and I cannot see how much farther down we can dig without it all caving in. So yea, maybe AA should have lined up with the others....

 

[chris perry]

Yea, really. Maybe they should have, but this leadership has not impressed me one bit over the last few years. I see thousands of dollars wasted every day at DFW, I hear from management that it's my fault AA is in the crapper. I wasn't hired to run the airline, just to fix the airplanes, but I've lost all faith in those that were hired to run AA. The decisions that are made are no way to run an airline or any other business for that matter and I cannot see how much farther down we can dig without it all caving in. So yea, maybe AA should have lined up with the others....

I agree with you MIdnights there is very little to be impressed with. The simple things like an AOG desk at the line.... we continue to fly parts in,ship them to the hgr and back to the line.... wasting countless hours and i mean hours.... while customers wait.The system is broken but continues after two ,three or ever how many consulting groups. Just one of maany examples!!! I waited an entire shift for one light bulb only to be lost in the shuffle.The funniest part we had over 250 MD80's at the time...the aircraft require 2 of the bulbs or no go!!!!!!!!! I ended up pulling one from a 15,000 dollar part just to make revised schedule costing min $500 bench check to return part to stock. Now thats cost effective but a direct reflection of the waste. Management sold all the parts,collected performance bonus and we are the problem broken record!!!!!

 

[PhatSappy]

Phat chance of more money!

 

[Rogallo]

Is that you Phat Don???

 

[Bob Owens]

Exactly! Mr. Warren Buffet,who did not get his wealth by being stupid stated in 2005 that AMR was foolish for not filing chapter 11 in 2003. AA could have dumped a whole lot of their debt and re-negoiated the labor agreements and be a much stronger Company today.Instead, the power control freaks[AA Management] would not relinquish control of AA to a Chapter 11 Judge and we have an Airline just limping along losing a few BILLION DOLLARS since 2003.The Management opted instead to get into the employees pockets to compensate for their incompetence.
The current AMR management are JUNKIES ADDICTED TO CONCESSIONS and the TWU is more than willing to sell us out for monthly dues.[Look at the TA we just REJECTED]

The SKY IS FALLING and it is AA who is going to get smashed by the competition. SWA and AirTran combined will own the domestic market and drive AA to an International Route System with a much SMALLER airline.

I agree that we should have gone the BK route, I think that would have pulled the rest of the industry in as well, but I dissagree that the advantage would have been renegotiated contracts because AA pretty much got more than they would have outside of BK from us than they would have in BK. You have to remember what the other carriers had given up to at that point, after we settled they went back for another round of cuts. How could they compete with AA if AA had lower costs without the costs of a BK filing? What didnt AA get? The Pension? AA got a better deal. while others switched to 401K matches which cost them more cash now, when they are hurting, AA got a sweetheart deal that allowed them to legally underfund our pension, to be used against us in the future. Look at your Total value statement, which they stopped updating in 2008. $1100 was what I got in my pension, a 3% match would have been $2100. AA saved around $1000. Of course underfunding it now will result in huge liabilities in the future because that $1100 probably wont go far in delivering the benifits promised but breaking promises is nothing new at AA. DEBT. As they build up the debt by getting a new plane every 8 days that will be the next crisis. Shedding the pension liability will be their next target.

 

[Duke787]

I agree that we should have gone the BK route, I think that would have pulled the rest of the industry in as well, but I dissagree that the advantage would have been renegotiated contracts because AA pretty much got more than they would have outside of BK from us than they would have in BK. You have to remember what the other carriers had given up to at that point, after we settled they went back for another round of cuts. How could they compete with AA if AA had lower costs without the costs of a BK filing? What didnt AA get? The Pension? AA got a better deal. while others switched to 401K matches which cost them more cash now, when they are hurting, AA got a sweetheart deal that allowed them to legally underfund our pension, to be used against us in the future. Look at your Total value statement, which they stopped updating in 2008. $1100 was what I got in my pension, a 3% match would have been $2100. AA saved around $1000. Of course underfunding it now will result in huge liabilities in the future because that $1100 probably wont go far in delivering the benifits promised but breaking promises is nothing new at AA. DEBT. As they build up the debt by getting a new plane every 8 days that will be the next crisis. Shedding the pension liability will be their next target.

Has AA offered anything in negotiations for the pension? I would be willing to freeze the pension for SWA pay. I can't imagine I'm the only AA employee who thinks that.

 

[Bob Owens]

Has AA offered anything in negotiations for the pension? I would be willing to freeze the pension for SWA pay. I can't imagine I'm the only AA employee who thinks that.

They wanted to take the DB away from the new hires and provide them with a DC that was inferior to what SWA offers.

Knowing what I know now and having seen the statistics of how many carriers default on their pension obligations I too would take the SWA match if I were younger, but at 49 it's too late for me to switch.