More Competition

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Ms Xidas took no "gifts" from management, you are making accusations you can't prove.

You owe her an apology!
 
TheWatcher said:
current business model? does that include a hub operation in PHL. having service there and major service are 2 different things. this is an area that the hometown airline has had a great deal of success in. if you dont think it will give US an edge, your thought is silly. dont get me wrong, i love Texas based companies and want to see them thrive and be highly successful. Southwest isnt my thing, but it is a Texas based company......one that i think would be biting off more than it can chew if it intends to offer a major operation in PHL or any other N.E. city for that matter on the scale of 150-200 daily flights. thats a huge departure from the "speak softly and carry a big stick" Texas attitude :)
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Where have you been? US/PI was the largest carrier my far and had a HUB in BWI.GONE gave it to WN
 
sharktooth said:
Um, Piney Bob.

You people on the East Coast really have no idea what makes SWA special, do you?

SWA handles irregular ops by committing 2 or 3 aircraft to an impacted city pair and slide ops so as to localize the disruption, something the USAir MEC Chairperson from the early '90s (Armen Janzen) suggested to Butch, but was criticized by the Piedmont reps. Turns out, the ALPA MEC chair was right and, as usual, the Piedmont critters were wrong, yet again.

and, no, SWA did not pull out (of SFO) "due to delays there". Where ever did you get such garbage? From the mental cripples always looking for excuses at CCY?

UAL, literally, kicked SWA out of the LAX-SFO market. It took hard work and some smarts that seem lacking in the east coast "brain trust". I leave the reason as an exercise for the east coast know-it-alls. (Hint: for over five years UAL operated a shuttle between LAX and SFO that had, even during the "slow" days of Tuesday and Thursday, from 05:30 to 22:30, give or take, seven departures per hour per direction - fourteen 737s airborne for that city pair(1+00 hours flight time) at any one time - each airplane full (personal experience - twice a week) - except the first and last flights). Makes the Trump Shuttle look like a casual afterthought, a sort of spot on a blue dress. OBTW, the "United Shuttle" that accomplished that task was a _direct_ derivitive of the "Pacific Shuttle" proposed by a group of PSA dudes for the "Ideas that Fly", turned down by both management and those same Piedmont "braintrust" MEC members of the time, surely the descendents of those southerners that let the carpetbaggers loot the south.

SWA pays attention to detail. Something the mgmt at USAir could benefit from but choose not to. The unions could choose to force USAir to pay attention, but, like management, are content to wallow in their shallow aspirations (like accepting "gifts" from management - Xidas/Pollock).

Pathetic that the employees do not demand change.
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Toothless,

Can you be specific please. If you are going to make accusations back them up. I would like to very much know what xidas got from her favorite management team who she praises to this day?????

Your lucky the union ALPA got you your job back, pal! Otherwise you would still be out on the streets with your arrogant attitude and self serving want-a-be.
 
Sharky, if you think you could do better with managment, why not run for office. Let's see how you could improve the pilot's work life since you "know".

Afraid you would lose an election huh? Hurt that explosive ego you got cause most of the pilots know your MO??? Or, you don't have the intellect to handle the duties?


Maybe wifey can help you since she does such fine work... :lol:
 
jerseyfinn said:
As to comparing Envoy or most any other airline business product to BA, that's a non-starter and doesn't fit the direction that US is trying to take the airline.
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The domestic coach product is (at present) no different (and in some cases worse) than all other legacies and LCCs.

You make money over the pond with cargo and premium pax. Coach won't cut it (largely because everybody flies over the pond).

My wife and I do most of my flying across the pond, and US fits our needs from PHL to Europe. Is it the most attractive or sleekest product ? No, it isn't. But the airline does a good job, and I get a sense that Europe will increasingly be a source of revenue as US continues to expand service.
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If you are paying full freight for envoy (which is pricing out roughly on-par with other domestic carriers over the pond), I salute you and would like to meet such that I can sell you a bridge.

If you are upgrading into Envoy, it's a different story--although you are not doing US any favors from a revenue standpoint and can look forward to the folks from the Sandcastle making it harder for you to get into the premium (such as one can call it that) cabin with a straight face.

Likewise, you belittle US for not focusing entirely upon the elite FF strata. Well, if you haven't noticed, THAT business model blew up for all of the legacy carriers a few years ago. In other words, the days of catering to a veneer of elites is not where an airline is going to make money in today's market.
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It's not simply the elite FF strata. It's anyone who cares about product differentiation.

Domestic coach is a commodity now. Yeah, there are places like HHH and AVL and the like that you still might be able to gouge a buck to get to, but they also get serviced by RJs. High costs. Assume that domestic coach is dead from a "trying to raise RASM" standpoint.

Running to the Carribbean was a great idea, up until the point that Airtran, B6, and finally Spirit decided to do so. That "gouge cow" is going to go away.

In Europe, one is facing all the other legacies, and the added benefit of having the worst transatlantic gateway (PHL) of any major on the East Coast.

This business of a "hybrid LCC" is not going to carry the kinds of fares Tempe is trying to charge. Unless they undercut the other legacies (which they are not), I'm going with the best product. Or hub system (eg, direct flights).

Absent product differentiation or price differentiation, US is going to lose to the revamped legacies on the one end and the LCC's on the other.

The new USA hybrid LCC/full service approach is an intriguing model and it remains a work in progress. I'm willing to see where USA is trying to take this thing. But then again, I'm not fixated upon management. I focus instead upon the employees and the service I receive from the time I hit the airport until I step off the plane. In this regard, the USA legacy employees continue to make US stand for something worth waiting for. I too am hoping for price stability and preservation of perks, but I'm more patient and willing to let management have a go at it.
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The employees on the east side are great (I've never maintained otherwise). I've not spent enough time flying HP metal to form a definitive opinion, but in my limited experience they seem okay.

Parker is on crack if he believe's he's going to be able to operate at a revenue premium over the LCCs domestically. The run and hide approach won't fly, and the premium product is no longer worth maintaining loyalty, buying blowfares, or paying more money for. Your mileage may vary in this regard.

Quite frankly, Parker has had the better part of a year to define and execute the "hybrid" airline. I'm seeing reduction in FF benefits, reductions in onboard services, and attempts to raise (instead of rationalize) fares in a bunch of markets. Color me underwhelmed.
 
ClueByFour,

I sense some angst with a touch of presumptive elitism in your reply. But I'll work through all of these issues & I'll still make an earnest effort at dialogue here.

. . .If you are upgrading into Envoy, it's a different story--although you are not doing US any favors from a revenue standpoint and can look forward to the folks from the Sandcastle making it harder for you to get into the premium (such as one can call it that) cabin with a straight face. . .

I'm a little clueless as to what you're driving at here. Are you suggesting that US is going to put me on "double secret probation" for purchasing a B,H,M,or Q fare and then God forbid, upgrading to Envoy? :eek:

Last time I looked, this is all spelled out in the US Air booking conditions and DM rules for folks who decide to remain loyal to US and fly with them. That's how a lot folks are sitting in what you call "premium" class on those TAs.

I don't know what you consider the proper way to fly or to pay for that travel, but my wife and I are giving US lots of revenue each year. I'd like to think that we're the sort of customer that US would want since we purchase many B fares along with those Ms & Qs and occassional Ws when we elect to ride in the back. I think that this is referred to as free market economics and not the free ride that you try to suggest we're taking.

. . . It's not simply the elite FF strata. It's anyone who cares about product differentiation . . . This business of a "hybrid LCC" is not going to carry the kinds of fares Tempe is trying to charge. Unless they undercut the other legacies . . . I'm going with the best product. Or hub system (eg, direct flights).


I take it that you are essentially arguing on behalf of "choice" which of course is what a competetive free market provides. But what you call the "best product" is a subjective opinion, and this is itself a product of choice. Now this is where lots of folks can differ as this after all, is what choice is about.

. . . Absent product differentiation or price differentiation, US is going to lose to the revamped legacies on the one end and the LCC's on the other. . .


I would like to suggest the thought that you might be presumptive in assuming that US will end up standing apart from the other legacy carriers. In other words, are America's air carriers going to remain static and cling to traditional revenue models, or might US Air simply be the first legacy to transition to a new hybrid model which is being imposed by multiple forces of change?

IMO, the jury is clearly out on this one, but beware, you and others may be arguing on behalf on the airline equivilant of the Ptolemic system while US and others slowly adapt and morph the LCC model. Mind you, I'm not saying that anything is certain, but the entire airline industry continues to expreience paradigm shift, and with Open Skies & other international treaties due for review, I think it's foolish to assume that legacy carriers and hub and spoke are cemented in time ( & remember, Xerox held PARC in its hand but could not see the future) .

. . . In Europe, one is facing all the other legacies, and the added benefit of having the worst transatlantic gateway (PHL) of any major on the East Coast. . .

Poppycock! :blink:

. . .Quite frankly, Parker has had the better part of a year to define and execute the "hybrid" airline. I'm seeing reduction in FF benefits, reductions in onboard services, and attempts to raise (instead of rationalize) fares in a bunch of markets. Color me underwhelmed . . .

Like I said, watch what the other lagacy carriers do in the next year or so. US has indeed tinkered with DM, but will they be the only carrier to devalue or redefine their FF programs, or will they simply be among the first to implement change and move on. I'm not so sure that it's simply a matter of cost reduction and then back to business as usual.

I can only suggest that if you are so angered and upset at US, Mr. Parker, and the US product experience in general that you consider exercising your market-economic choice and find that other legacy carrier which takes your breath away.

You are of course welcome to remain with US and fly with those of us who recognize the world as imperfect and still try to find a way to move forward. Differences of opinion are always welcome when dissent is earnest. But when they are expressed as absolutes, they're quickly forgotten like a leaf swept away on the winds.

In my case, my wife and I continue to let US be the airline that carrys us on the wind to many destinations. Life is more about trying to make the best of things than tearing everything to bits. What then could we do to make US a better carrier?

regards,

Barry
 
sharktooth said:
and, no, SWA did not pull out (of SFO) "due to delays there". Where ever did you get such garbage? From the mental cripples always looking for excuses at CCY?

UAL, literally, kicked SWA out of the LAX-SFO market. It took hard work and some smarts that seem lacking in the east coast "brain trust". I leave the reason as an exercise for the east coast know-it-alls. (Hint: for over five years UAL operated a shuttle between LAX and SFO that had, even during the "slow" days of Tuesday and Thursday, from 05:30 to 22:30, give or take, seven departures per hour per direction - fourteen 737s airborne for that city pair(1+00 hours flight time) at any one time - each airplane full (personal experience - twice a week) - except the first and last flights).
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You know, I've been on the periphery but I don't recall WN ever being a big player between LAX & SFO. I remember them flying SAN to SFO...but not LAX. Certainly not in any big way.

Sharktooth, could you please tell me what time frame (years) that we are talking about here?

The numbers in that market suggest that it never would have supported that type frequency. To wit:

In 2005, LAX-SFO was a 1901 psgr per day market at an average fare of $158. UA had a mkt share of 64%.

That same year LAX-OAK was a 3332 psgr per day market at an average fare of $96. WN had 95% mkt share.

In 2004, LAX-SFO was a 1898 psgr per day market at an average fare of $139. UA had a mkt share of 64%.

That same year LAX-OAK was a 3110 psgr per day market at an average fare of $90. WN had 92% mkt share.

In 2003, LAX-SFO was a 1680 psgr per day market at an average fare of $140.

That same year LAX-OAK was a 3453psgr per day market at an average fare of $79. WN had 93% mkt share.

Goin back further:

in 1998 LAX-SFO had 4377 psgrs per day, UA had a mkt share of 83% (Reno Air was in second place with about 9%) Average fare was $80.

that year LAX-OAK was 3879 psgrs per day at an average fare of $67, WN had a 75% share.

in 1997 LAX-SFO had 4305 psgrs per day, UA had a mkt share of 87% Average fare was $89.

that year LAX-OAK was 3930 psgrs per day at an average fare of $65, WN had a 70% share.

I am not doubting your memory, but I do not recall WN ever going head-to-head against UA in LAX-SFO. I do remember them mixing it up in LAX-OAK, LAX-SMF, SAN-SFO etc etc.

I REALLY don't recall United ever running LAX-SFO at 10 minute intervals all day long. That would be 102 flights in each direction daily....or a total of 204 flights per day. That would be 24,480 psgrs per day roughly...which would have this market shrinking to 1/5th as large by 1997 and less than 1/12th as large by 2005.

I look forward to hearing from you.
 
jerseyfinn said:
I can only suggest that if you are so angered and upset at US, Mr. Parker, and the US product experience in general that you consider exercising your market-economic choice and find that other legacy carrier which takes your breath away.
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I have. Went from US1 to US2 and next year will be US-nothing. When the transatlantic product went to pot during the last bankruptcy, I made it a point to fax around $20k worth of receipts to CCY and consumer affairs and explain exactly why US could have had that revenue. When paying full freight for a premium ticket, there is no incentive to fly US when every other domestic legacy is ahead in creature comforts and the european airlines (notably BA) absolutely crush Envoy from a product standpoint. Domestically, I am usually forced to connect to get where I need to go regardless of who I fly. Same rule applies here--I'm often buying last minute fares which entail a Y-UP or Q-UP scenario on anyone else, yet US wants a restricted-Y fare which is more than the competition %85 of the time, and usually involves a pair of RJ flights.

My remaining travel on US is usually limited to either fares bought on UA ticket stock that involve a hop on US metal, or from locations that nobody else serves (I frequent many of these on the east coast). And the million miles or so of reward travel which is just wrapping up with a jaunt down to the islands.

You are of course welcome to remain with US and fly with those of us who recognize the world as imperfect and still try to find a way to move forward. Differences of opinion are always welcome when dissent is earnest. But when they are expressed as absolutes, they're quickly forgotten like a leaf swept away on the winds.
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You need to ask yourself how many times you have heard the folks from the Sandcastle ask their customers what their priorities and needs are. You need to look back and count the number of customer friendly changes that have been made to DM. I can think of the $25 confirmed standby. Contrast that with the devaluation of the program that's happened, and some tragic decisions (companion upgrades below US1 day of and the like) that have only been averted due to hue and organized cry from FFOCUS and their merry band of men and women.

If it works for you, enjoy the experience. I'd suggest, however, that the number of people for whom DM makes a loyalty-inspiring difference is shrinking daily.
 
"Mitchell said United and Continental, the No. 2 and No. 4 U.S. airlines, respectively, are the only majors that still make wholehearted efforts to win repeat customers by nurturing loyalty."

"Others focus on almost exclusively on low-fare competition, a move that alienates some long-time customers who might have booked flights without shopping first, said KKC's Klaskin."

Major US airlines cannot count on customer loyalty

Jim
 
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