Thank you for your opinion Jim. And I'm sure most of the mechanics here have one about (the IAM) and you. I'm sure amongst all professionals, pilots, doctors, policeman, etc there are discussions regarding their own ranks. Regards, The Ronin
More Mechanics Out The Door
- Thread starter The Ronin
- Start date
U
UAL_TECH
Guest
The Ronin,
I understand and empathize with your frustration. At this juncture, all we can do is try to assist our Brothers and Sisters in their transition to positions that they probably do not want to be in but are forced into due to our current situation. I understand that it puts an additional burden on you as now you have become a trainer as well as an AMT. Consider treating them as you may be treated if the situation were reversed.
(If line maintenance was being farmed out and you had bumped another person to work components, how would (should) you be treated? )
If the people that you are working with cannot/willnot come up to speed in the 90 day period allowed (sooner if you can prove that they are totally incompetent), then you can request their removal based on your documented findings.
I know that this should not be your decision, but the decision of the first line supervisor (if your supervisor is anything like mine, you already know the answer).
Good luck to you in your quest (as I believe that there a few more battles coming soon).
Take Care,
🙂 UAL_TECH
I understand and empathize with your frustration. At this juncture, all we can do is try to assist our Brothers and Sisters in their transition to positions that they probably do not want to be in but are forced into due to our current situation. I understand that it puts an additional burden on you as now you have become a trainer as well as an AMT. Consider treating them as you may be treated if the situation were reversed.
(If line maintenance was being farmed out and you had bumped another person to work components, how would (should) you be treated? )
If the people that you are working with cannot/willnot come up to speed in the 90 day period allowed (sooner if you can prove that they are totally incompetent), then you can request their removal based on your documented findings.
I know that this should not be your decision, but the decision of the first line supervisor (if your supervisor is anything like mine, you already know the answer).
Good luck to you in your quest (as I believe that there a few more battles coming soon).
Take Care,
🙂 UAL_TECH
The attitude is starting to show (at least at ORD).
What happened on Saturday? Asked if you could cool off the 47 during boarding, response: "Maybe". They didn't, thanks. Couldn't get the tug off the nose gear for 20 minutes? Wow FYI to the guys who did it: 881 arrived ontime anyway but "Thanks for the efforts"
I think it's rotten what is happening to the jobs but you are targeting the wrong people. The customers and crew are NOT your enemies here. :huh:
What happened on Saturday? Asked if you could cool off the 47 during boarding, response: "Maybe". They didn't, thanks. Couldn't get the tug off the nose gear for 20 minutes? Wow FYI to the guys who did it: 881 arrived ontime anyway but "Thanks for the efforts"
I think it's rotten what is happening to the jobs but you are targeting the wrong people. The customers and crew are NOT your enemies here. :huh:
In response to the last two posts:
Unless I had experience/background in the component shop I was bumping into, no I do not believe it is good business sense to layoff a qualified (example: hyd pump) rebuilder who produces 2 pumps a day with a person who produces 0 pumps. Just like a slide packer or carpet cutter should not displace our run/up taxi cat III multi-fleet qualified techs.
On point 2, I'm not sure WHO is doing pushback at ORD but I assume the rampers are starting to, so get ready for one heck of a ride now or wait that is...lol...the company sure is going to like the money they save. And I don't care what situation we are in, including potentially losing my job, I am a paid professional and should conduct myself accordingly including being courtious to the flight crew and everyone else involved with operations.
Unless I had experience/background in the component shop I was bumping into, no I do not believe it is good business sense to layoff a qualified (example: hyd pump) rebuilder who produces 2 pumps a day with a person who produces 0 pumps. Just like a slide packer or carpet cutter should not displace our run/up taxi cat III multi-fleet qualified techs.
On point 2, I'm not sure WHO is doing pushback at ORD but I assume the rampers are starting to, so get ready for one heck of a ride now or wait that is...lol...the company sure is going to like the money they save. And I don't care what situation we are in, including potentially losing my job, I am a paid professional and should conduct myself accordingly including being courtious to the flight crew and everyone else involved with operations.
ual747mech
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It's funny, wasn't it not too long ago that you pilots were behaving like this?Fly said:
Can we all just get along? 😀
ual747mech
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Jim,atabuy said:
Ronin,
It seems like a lot of crying for a group who could go out and make this money anywhere.
I hate to say this but you guys brought everything that has happened on yourselves.
You were completely insane with full pay until the last day, and not working with the company a long time ago.
You have made your bed but don't want to lay in it.
By the way, whatever happened to we are all professionals and deserve more money. Seems like you are all snapping at each other again.
So much for a united union. You really show that you are all out for yourselves and not one team.
Seniority is king and you better accept it. That is the only thing between you and the street.
If you think I feel a little bitter about your stand with Ual, I am. Maybe trying would have still put us where we are but you guys did not see the wall let alone the writing on it.
Quit crying and take it like a man.
I, too, was bitter about how others stood but I don't really blame my fellow mechanics anymore. It was the previous management who screwed everything up. We, like everyone else who participated in the Esop, were expecting a smooth transition to a new contract. The games the Company and IAM played during negotiations took it's toll on the majority of us. Remember, the IAM kept negotiations secret and that's not good. After finally getting the contract we deserved during a very lengthy negotiation, nobody was about to give most of it back when the company and IAM said we needed to help out. I knew that it was going to be worse in bunkrupty and I tried to tell others but nobody wanted to listen to anyone, not to management and the IAM because nobody trusted them anymore after all the bs that went on. I think everybody(management and all employees) learned their lesson after what happened. I hope management learned a more valuable lesson for not treating their employees properly. I hope from now on everybody will work together so we can rebuild our once great airline.
As far as the transition to AMFA, everything is a lot quieter these days, there is less disgruntled mechs, it's been a while since I talk to a disgruntled mech 🙂. Of course there's always somebody who thinks the system is screwed up no matter who is representing them like the people who thinks it's not right getting bumped because he's less seniority.. Folks thats the way it is. Seniority rules for everybody. Everyone will be trained eventually just like you were when you first got there.
U
UAL_TECH
Guest
ual747mech said:Jim,atabuy said:
Ronin,
It seems like a lot of crying for a group who could go out and make this money anywhere.
I hate to say this but you guys brought everything that has happened on yourselves.
You were completely insane with full pay until the last day, and not working with the company a long time ago.
You have made your bed but don't want to lay in it.
By the way, whatever happened to we are all professionals and deserve more money. Seems like you are all snapping at each other again.
So much for a united union. You really show that you are all out for yourselves and not one team.
Seniority is king and you better accept it. That is the only thing between you and the street.
If you think I feel a little bitter about your stand with Ual, I am. Maybe trying would have still put us where we are but you guys did not see the wall let alone the writing on it.
Quit crying and take it like a man.
I, too, was bitter about how others stood but I don't really blame my fellow mechanics anymore. It was the previous management who screwed everything up. We, like everyone else who participated in the Esop, were expecting a smooth transition to a new contract. The games the Company and IAM played during negotiations took it's toll on the majority of us. Remember, the IAM kept negotiations secret and that's not good. After finally getting the contract we deserved during a very lengthy negotiation, nobody was about to give most of it back when the company and IAM said we needed to help out. I knew that it was going to be worse in bunkrupty and I tried to tell others but nobody wanted to listen to anyone, not to management and the IAM because nobody trusted them anymore after all the bs that went on. I think everybody(management and all employees) learned their lesson after what happened. I hope management learned a more valuable lesson for not treating their employees properly. I hope from now on everybody will work together so we can rebuild our once great airline.
As far as the transition to AMFA, everything is a lot quieter these days, there is less disgruntled mechs, it's been a while since I talk to a disgruntled mech 🙂. Of course there's always somebody who thinks the system is screwed up no matter who is representing them like the people who thinks it's not right getting bumped because he's less seniority.. Folks thats the way it is. Seniority rules for everybody. Everyone will be trained eventually just like you were when you first got there.
ual747mech,
Good post!
Take Care,
🙂 UAL_TECH
Jim,
I, too, was bitter about how others stood but I don't really blame my fellow mechanics anymore. It was the previous management who screwed everything up. We, like everyone else who participated in the Esop, were expecting a smooth transition to a new contract. The games the Company and IAM played during negotiations took it's toll on the majority of us. Remember, the IAM kept negotiations secret and that's not good. After finally getting the contract we deserved during a very lengthy negotiation, nobody was about to give most of it back when the company and IAM said we needed to help out. I knew that it was going to be worse in bunkrupty and I tried to tell others but nobody wanted to listen to anyone, not to management and the IAM because nobody trusted them anymore after all the bs that went on. I think everybody(management and all employees) learned their lesson after what happened. I hope management learned a more valuable lesson for not treating their employees properly. I hope from now on everybody will work together so we can rebuild our once great airline.
As far as the transition to AMFA, everything is a lot quieter these days, there is less disgruntled mechs, it's been a while since I talk to a disgruntled mech smile.gif. Of course there's always somebody who thinks the system is screwed up no matter who is representing them like the people who thinks it's not right getting bumped because he's less seniority.. Folks thats the way it is. Seniority rules for everybody. Everyone will be trained eventually just like you were when you first got there.
ual747 mech,
My favorite quote is:
Experience is the best teacher, but fools learn no other way.
I guess I get a little frustrated when the people who put themselves in a tenuous position, then complain about their lot in life. I coaxed and pleaded with mechs to realize how much trouble we were in over the last few years, just to have it fall on deaf ears. I warned many that life would not be close to being the same, and how many people would rue the day of not trying to compromise with the company.
The attitude of not caring if the company would make it if they were not compensated for years of ESOP give backs just made no sense in the situation we were in.
Sure, management, sucked and still is not impressing me with a good plan for bad times. I really think much more could have been done which would have shown great leadership abilities, but we don't have those kind of leaders at the helm.
I can group a lot of pilots in the same boat as mechs. with bad attitudes. The difference between them is the pilots knew most of them could not go out in the real world and get jobs paying what they make at Ual. If they could get a flying job it would be starting all over again for them. They got it!! Finally.
The world has been changing for a while now, and outsourcing was a new way for companies to get around unions. Strong unions wrote rules into contracts to outflank this trend, but upstarts, used this group and put a lot of pressure on the more established airlines. The same goes for rj's. Contracts dictated many things Ual could and couldn't do to build in cost savings. Job security is the motivation, but maybe in the long run, some things are better left go to compete with upstarts to keep them at bay.
Timing is the key issue here for everything that has happened in the last 4 years. It was lousy, and strong moves by our unions, coupled with bad management relations and decisions. the summer of hell, the esop debacle, travel agent commissions, and 911 put us where we are today.
Bad attitudes are like a cancer . If not removed, will grow and eventually kill our company. Small upstarts have been able to capitalize on starting fresh, with a healthy body of workers who want nothing better than to kill the giants. Their incentive is, when we are gone, they can make a lot more money.
What is ours?
Just surviving maybe.
Good luck to all,
I, too, was bitter about how others stood but I don't really blame my fellow mechanics anymore. It was the previous management who screwed everything up. We, like everyone else who participated in the Esop, were expecting a smooth transition to a new contract. The games the Company and IAM played during negotiations took it's toll on the majority of us. Remember, the IAM kept negotiations secret and that's not good. After finally getting the contract we deserved during a very lengthy negotiation, nobody was about to give most of it back when the company and IAM said we needed to help out. I knew that it was going to be worse in bunkrupty and I tried to tell others but nobody wanted to listen to anyone, not to management and the IAM because nobody trusted them anymore after all the bs that went on. I think everybody(management and all employees) learned their lesson after what happened. I hope management learned a more valuable lesson for not treating their employees properly. I hope from now on everybody will work together so we can rebuild our once great airline.
As far as the transition to AMFA, everything is a lot quieter these days, there is less disgruntled mechs, it's been a while since I talk to a disgruntled mech smile.gif. Of course there's always somebody who thinks the system is screwed up no matter who is representing them like the people who thinks it's not right getting bumped because he's less seniority.. Folks thats the way it is. Seniority rules for everybody. Everyone will be trained eventually just like you were when you first got there.
ual747 mech,
My favorite quote is:
Experience is the best teacher, but fools learn no other way.
I guess I get a little frustrated when the people who put themselves in a tenuous position, then complain about their lot in life. I coaxed and pleaded with mechs to realize how much trouble we were in over the last few years, just to have it fall on deaf ears. I warned many that life would not be close to being the same, and how many people would rue the day of not trying to compromise with the company.
The attitude of not caring if the company would make it if they were not compensated for years of ESOP give backs just made no sense in the situation we were in.
Sure, management, sucked and still is not impressing me with a good plan for bad times. I really think much more could have been done which would have shown great leadership abilities, but we don't have those kind of leaders at the helm.
I can group a lot of pilots in the same boat as mechs. with bad attitudes. The difference between them is the pilots knew most of them could not go out in the real world and get jobs paying what they make at Ual. If they could get a flying job it would be starting all over again for them. They got it!! Finally.
The world has been changing for a while now, and outsourcing was a new way for companies to get around unions. Strong unions wrote rules into contracts to outflank this trend, but upstarts, used this group and put a lot of pressure on the more established airlines. The same goes for rj's. Contracts dictated many things Ual could and couldn't do to build in cost savings. Job security is the motivation, but maybe in the long run, some things are better left go to compete with upstarts to keep them at bay.
Timing is the key issue here for everything that has happened in the last 4 years. It was lousy, and strong moves by our unions, coupled with bad management relations and decisions. the summer of hell, the esop debacle, travel agent commissions, and 911 put us where we are today.
Bad attitudes are like a cancer . If not removed, will grow and eventually kill our company. Small upstarts have been able to capitalize on starting fresh, with a healthy body of workers who want nothing better than to kill the giants. Their incentive is, when we are gone, they can make a lot more money.
What is ours?
Just surviving maybe.
Good luck to all,
I read these posts and am already to go off the deepend...but then I realized something in me has changed. It must be the beauty of diversity 😛 that I finally understand. I don't believe in it or buy any of it but everyone construes the world in their own eyes. Or maybe it was watching all of the crew except for me and one other guy get their letters last night. I'm glad each of you have your opinions and the opportunity to express them. Some of us are in for a long haul, others probably not so long. We will still lose more(our pension being starters) before we clear this mess, if the company can clear it remains to be seen. These were good guys and they were my friends like all the rest that have left before them. I wish them and you well. The Ronin
Ronin,
Your remarks describe you as very narrow on point of view. Sometimes called tunnel vision.
Many of your friends that are leaving might have had something to do with their own fate. You could have had a hand in it too.
If you want to get your friends back as quick as possible, drop the victim attitude and start making a difference at work. You came to Ual, they did not ask you to. I am sure the day you were hired you were estatic. Remember back to then and try to rekindle that feeling. Sometimes we take things for granted and think they will never change. Things do change and you are witnessing it firsthand.
Realize that there are many things you can't change and work on the things you can. There will still be buttheads both in management and labor, but don't let it stop your efforts to make the company profitable.
As you said, everyone has an opinion. It doesn't hurt to listen sometimes.
Another favorite saying is this:
Opinions are like (i) Rectums. Everyone has one.
I cleaned it up for the censors.
Jim, I tried to remain civil for both the readers, moderators and myself. I've tried to ignore the "bait", because you've certaintly put it out there. Find somewhere else to dribble that puke you call insight...you have none. Post something else, somewhere else. I will not follow nor reply. *Deleted by Moderator* How the heck do you know what I do at work!!! Where do you get off that you have any clue what I accomplish each and every night. Yea, my attitude may not be the greatest, but you DON"T KNOW JIM. You're not here anymore, thank god. If you were, you might just have figured a little wrong about some people. Brought this on ourselves, couldn't possibly had anything with 35 yrs of shirt tailing ramp/store rats making $25/hr, handing me tools and o-rings and doing a good bit of lounging on their their own could it! Everyone has a part in it so don't go giving some sort of piety bull that we did it to ourselves. We are paying the ultimate price, but we had enough of you guys and the company and we told you both to go shove it. If there is to be any satisfaction it will be watching you guys negotiate your next contract, if they don't break your backs and contract all that work out too. Good Day Sir.
Ronin,
First things first. I was a mechanic. Second thing, what gives you the right to expect raises every year and not have other labor groups get them too.
Are you saying that because rampers and other classifications work for less at other carriers that Ual rampers and such should too.
If that were the case, you should get scale at what they pay in out sourcing terminals.
Your attitude is what I speak of when talking about mechanics. You brought your own misery on yourselves with your ( I am special attitude ) . AMFA blew smoke and the less rational inhaled the whole puff.
Tell me in a couple of weeks how your friends on the street are doing, getting jobs, that pay what Ual did. Well it might take longer than that since they will receive severance and unemployment. Probably a year and a half.
The problem with most of you guys is you never had any hardships in your life and that gives you zero prospective on what life is really about.
You are right about not knowing what you do, but I have a good understanding of what type of person you are. I have seen hundreds of them at Ual.
You were probably spoiled as a child because you grew up in one of the best economies ever and had every thing. Now that your on your own, you want it right away. Your parents worked a whole lifetime to get where they are.
Most times a spoiled child will look at someone else and cry because they have things they feel they don't deserve. ( Rampers ) for example. Yeah, I know you pretty well.
Did you ever spend any time in the military? No? Just took care of yourself huh?
50 years ago young guys were dying to give you the freedom and peace you lived in so you wouldn't have to serve. Maybe you should get a better prospective on the guys before you, who you say, are not worth what they make.
I know you value your life very highly. You should feel lucky your between wars and not in Iraq right now. I could understand you complaining more then, compared to what little problems you have had to go though now.
There is a life outside of that little cocoon your in.
Last and final reply on this subject. I am sure people are tired of watching us waste everyones time with this back and forth sniping. Jim, you were not a mechanic. If you ever were it was on a tractor somewhere in bumbheck Egypt. Second of all, and I hate to defend myself but what can you do but tell the story to staighten this moron out. I was with the 22Mairne Amphibious Unit in '83. You remember a little island called Grenada...yeah, well the second US chopper to land that day had my ass on it. Less than 30 days later, guess what Jim, I arrived in Beruit. I was there for the next 8 1/2 months. I came home, many did not. I work full time at United. I own and operate an automotive business. I contract 2 days a week to an automotive shop. I attend automotive training for 3 1/2 hrs one day a week. I earn $30-$45/hr doing mostly diagnostic repair. I average 12-16hrs a day and I take work almost any day of the week. And I do all of this because noone knows the future of UAL. I do this because I will never make anymore money at UAL. I do this so I don't have to humble myself and eat dirt from a corporation or a union or worry that some buckling dilusional yesteryear UAL employee will have a major impact on my life. You don't know Jack, Jim. The cancer and work ethic was at U long before I showed up. Embelished from your generation on unionism and the company's own work ethic and to an extent, from an ethic that is far to prevelant in our own US society. I am not a matyr or anything special. I am just another guy trying to do the best he can with the cards I've been delt. Times are a little tough, but compared to what my parents and grandparents went through, this is a piece of cake. So enjoy retirement Jim, most of us on these boards will probably never know it.
