More twu concessions on the way

[Wretched Wrench]

This whole thing is nothing more than managing expectations.....................

Of course.

It is traditional for a company to poor mouth before negotiations.

It is NOT traditional for a union to do it for the company.

Traditional definition of a sweetheart contract:.....1. An agreement between an employer and trade union officials, especially those of a local union branch, which is excessively favorable to the employer and usually to the advantage of the union officials but which is detrimental to the interests of the workers concerned.

 

[FWAAA]

Did you see the page with the oil price forecast? $66.00 per bbl in 2011 yet as I sit here watching CNBC I see NYMEX Crude trading at $58.12 per bbl.

So are you thinking that the $66/bbl forecast is way too high or way too low based on today's $58/bbl? A lot can happen in five years. Could be $20 or could be $120.

 

[eolesen]

Hackman makes valid points. Had the TWU been at NWA or UAL representing AMTs, does anybody really believe they would have fared better?

Honestly, it's all from whatever you call "fared better".

Some people want to keep pay and benefits untouched, even if it means junior people losing their jobs. Others are content to work for less and have benefit cuts if it means more people keep their job. Harsh reality says you can't have both when the company is in dire straits.

At NWA, I seriously doubt it would have come down to a strike/lockout with the TWU. It's not because they're necessarily weaker at the bargaining table (I know most of you feel otherwise), but my impression is that ATD perfers having some of its members still employed as opposed to having none of its members employed.

UAL is a tougher call. The decision to shut down their overhaul was made before bankruptcy, and it's hard to say it with concessions, overhaul at IMC, OAK and SFO might have remained open. I don't think anyone was going to win that battle.

The TWU is not a union for AMTs. Even our sim techs are making more than AMTs now coutesy of the TWU. The dispatchers are at $45 per hour give or take - not bad for a 12 week course

From the cheap seats, I'd say all unions suck at keeping wages high, benefits intact, and members employed.

IIRC, there aren't more than 100 of them in either the simtech or dispatch workgroups, so like it or not, they have a lot more leverage than a workgroup of 12,000 does. But they also have a lot less flexibility, i.e. there's no such thing as a transferring or bumping into to another city. GSW is their only option. Leaving means going to work for another airline or finding another career. AMT's at least have the option of going to work for a MRO.

 

[Hackman]

Honestly, it's all from whatever you call "fared better".

Some people want to keep pay and benefits untouched, even if it means junior people losing their jobs. Others are content to work for less and have benefit cuts if it means more people keep their job. Harsh reality says you can't have both when the company is in dire straits.

At NWA, I seriously doubt it would have come down to a strike/lockout with the TWU. It's not because they're necessarily weaker at the bargaining table (I know most of you feel otherwise), but my impression is that ATD perfers having some of its members still employed as opposed to having none of its members employed.

UAL is a tougher call. The decision to shut down their overhaul was made before bankruptcy, and it's hard to say it with concessions, overhaul at IMC, OAK and SFO might have remained open. I don't think anyone was going to win that battle.
From the cheap seats, I'd say all unions suck at keeping wages high, benefits intact, and members employed.

IIRC, there aren't more than 100 of them in either the simtech or dispatch workgroups, so like it or not, they have a lot more leverage than a workgroup of 12,000 does. But they also have a lot less flexibility, i.e. there's no such thing as a transferring or bumping into to another city. GSW is their only option. Leaving means going to work for another airline or finding another career. AMT's at least have the option of going to work for a MRO.

Sometimes when you fight, you get bloody...or worse. Cowards will forever have an excuse of why they can't or won't pull the trigger. The twu is one such an organization. It isn't about its members with the twu International, they havn't fought for them since the last twu strike in 1968, which only lasted 21 days. No, its about those on the unelected twu International gravy train, getting on it for life, and keeping that train running on the compAAny laid track. The twu International are nothing more than AA management in cheap suits with large bar tabs.

Your right about a twu strike at NWA if they were on the property....would never happen. They would have bowing to Dougie in record time, and licked his boots clean on the way down. AMFA did not want a strike, they were forced. A Minnesota judge ruled a few weeks ago that NWA management locked out its mechanics. It shows what a bias management moron you are for implying AMFA wanted to walk out. AMFA tried to bargain with Dougie Stealin' and the other NWA management louts, but they were having none of it. They already had scabs in Arizona being trained a year in advance, during NEGOTIATIONS!!!. "Good faith" bargaining right FM??? :angry: AMFA should have struck immediately after learning of the scab plan, but that would have been unlawful. We all know who owns the courts today, don't we? :down:

There are many unions that do great for their members, you need to do some research on plumbers, longshoremen, and a few other skills before you run your mouth FM. :blink: BTW, most AMTs have many more options than working at an MRO.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

The TWU is not a union for AMTs. The dispatchers are at $45 per hour give or take - not bad for a 12 week course - wasn't Jim Little a dispatcher?

Yeah, he was, at least according to several versions of his curriculum vitae.

BTW, does anyone have them on file? I lost my copies.

 

[Vortilon]

IIRC, there aren't more than 100 of them in either the simtech or dispatch workgroups, so like it or not, they have a lot more leverage than a workgroup of 12,000 does. But they also have a lot less flexibility, i.e. there's no such thing as a transferring or bumping into to another city. GSW is their only option. Leaving means going to work for another airline or finding another career. AMT's at least have the option of going to work for a MRO.

How is it either one of these groups has any more leverage than the AMTs. Either one could be contracted out, or have scabs brought to a secret training facility till they were brought up to speed. Especially the sim techs. Most of the dispatch work could be done by computer programs and the pilots themselves - hell, thats probably just a matter of time anyway. 😉

 

[eolesen]

How is it either one of these groups has any more leverage than the AMTs. Either one could be contracted out, or have scabs brought to a secret training facility till they were brought up to speed. Especially the sim techs. Most of the dispatch work could be done by computer programs and the pilots themselves - hell, thats probably just a matter of time anyway. 😉

You're absolutely right that the sim techs could be outsourced, but without diving into the FAR's, I'm fairly certain that they require that dispatchers be employees of the certificate holder. All of the small non-union regionals still have their own dispatchers, and I would have expected them to have looked at outsourcing that function long before a major carrier would.

Thus, as long they can't be outsourced and the AMT's can, the dispatchers will have bargaining power the AMT's and fleet service don't have.

AMFA did not want a strike, they were forced. A Minnesota judge ruled a few weeks ago that NWA management locked out its mechanics. It shows what a bias management moron you are for implying AMFA wanted to walk out.

No ####. Really? Thank's for recapping the obvious about NWA and AMFA. I hadn't noticed any of that in the past 15 months or however long the strike has dragged out.

If you ever bother to lay off the Hate-O-Rade long enough to actually read something in context, perhaps you'd notice there's no mention of AMFA anywhere in my post.

There was no doubt that NWA wanted the mechanics to walk out. NWA simply had deeper pockets, better lawyers and better strategists. AMFA fell into their trap, and the members lost.

That's not bias, Hackman. If you want to beat management at their game, don't be so damn predictable.

 

[aafsc]

Yes, some of the best the industry, and fighting rogue management. Something the Toilet Workers Union only talks about. The NWA/AMFA 2001 agreement was fought all way to a PEB, and the twu waited for it to be settled and still couldn't match it. Who else fought that hard? The twu? The iam? 🙄 The ibt??? (Stick with airlines please, UPS and FDX are far and above airlines in profits, pay, and management quality). Who started the outsourcing of the NWA DC-10's and the 747's to China??? The iam did. Who started the concessions rolling at NWA waaaay back in 1993 and the iam employees still haven't been paid for the NWA stock options promised??? The iam did. The iam has currently agreed to outsource nearly all NWA outstations staffed with iam rampers. AMFA fought a fight they didn't ask for. The rest of the unions cowered. Just like the twu will again, and again, and again. :down: :down:

UAL mechanics should have struck, but they didn't. The iam screwed its members at UAL before getting the boot by AMFA. The iam agreed to outsource ALL heavy maintenance and turned its back on the retirees and then blamed AMFA for it. Typical iam.

SWA AMFA mechanics took the money offered by SWA management during difficult times. Just like the twu would have, except it would have been twu concessions instead of raises. I have full confidence AMFA will negotiate a great contract for SWA when the time comes.

Let me ask you aafcu, will the twu International ever say no to AA, or strike if it comes to it? Will they ever fight.....For ANYTHING??? PLULEEEZZZ!!!!! When it comes time for another screwing, will the twu fight or cower??? The twu administers what the compAAny tells them to....which is 20+ years of nothing but concessions. The twu has always been the first to nearly every concession known to exist, starting with yes...the B-scale. Why do you think AA management fought so had to keep a AMFA/twu representational vote from occuring??? Hmmmm.....ah... maybe non-stop twu concessions??? Crooked and bought twu International unelected officers??? Must be something they like!!!! Nah, the company just really cares about its employees. That's it!!!

You need to shut your pie hole about mechanics, and stick to stress testing Samsonites and getting your next bag of ganja. :down: :blink:

This isn't the-mechanic.com, I or anyone else can post about anything I (they) damn well please; it's called free speech. I have posted about the pay of other work groups as well. Never have done drugs either; never been interested in trying it and I wouldn't want to risk losing my airman's certificate.

Your correct about the stock at NW and the fact that they are outsourcing many line stations. I beleive that the IAM staffed every station NW flies to domestically (even if it only had one flight a day-maybe Kev can say if this is true), but they will still staff about 40 cities which will put them about even with AA. The majority of NW/IAM people voted for that contract (I would have voted against it) just like those UA/AMFA mechanics voted for that piece of crap they have. Regarding the stock, the IAM went to court and WON a judgement against NW; however I don't know the current status of the payment.

While the TWU/AA did indeed come up with the B-scale. It was not the first concessions. The B-scale was AA's answer to the concessions at EA , PA and others that started as far back as the 1970s and CO's first bankruptcy in the early 1980s when Lorenzo used the bankruptcy code to toss out the union contracts. Not only did EAL take concessions from incumbant employees, they also had a B-scale. The B-scale at AA enabled incumbant AA employees to avoid paycuts that employees of the forementioned airlines took; also helped AA compete against airlines like People Express. AA would have likely ended up on the scrap pile of failed airlines if they had not done the B-scale to stay competitive.
AA was just a domestic airline at the time; a couple of routes to Europe, 1 to NRT, and they did not yet possess EA's Latin routes or tw's LHR routes. UA was in a much better position because it acquired PA's Asian routes in the mid 1980s; which was a gold mine for them from day 1.

 

[Hackman]

No ####. Really? Thank's for recapping the obvious about NWA and AMFA. I hadn't noticed any of that in the past 15 months or however long the strike has dragged out.

If you ever bother to lay off the Hate-O-Rade long enough to actually read something in context, perhaps you'd notice there's no mention of AMFA anywhere in my post.

There was no doubt that NWA wanted the mechanics to walk out. NWA simply had deeper pockets, better lawyers and better strategists. AMFA fell into their trap, and the members lost.

That's not bias, Hackman. If you want to beat management at their game, don't be so damn predictable.

Without mentioning AMFA? Well jeez FromundAA Man,..... I could swear the AMFA/NWA implications by you were there. Could it be this statement?...I just dunno how I could have got the context so wrong; 🙄 "At NWA, I seriously doubt it would have come down to a strike/lockout with the TWU. It's not because they're necessarily weaker at the bargaining table (I know most of you feel otherwise), but my impression is that ATD perfers having some of its members still employed as opposed to having none of its members employed." Some context....I think I get it now!!!! 😉 :blink:

The FM idiocy continues......

"NWA had deeper pockets" No f'in kidding??? How did they get that $100 million scab plan FM?? Was it a loan from the bankruptcy judge??? Or maybe from the pockets of the beleagered NWA employees they screwed for the past 15 years?? Oh, I know!!! It was Dougie Stealin's MOMMY that loaned NWA the $100,000,000.

"Better lawyers".....Yep, the best crooked ones they could find. They were damned expensive too. I bet they got paid up front, ya think??

"Better Strategists" Again, hatching up a scab plan don't take much. Subverting the RLA and not bargaining in good faith, not really that difficult either. But having bought off judges and the NMB, now that's somewhat tricky and costs some $$$$.... but hey, a cool $100 mil will usually get the job done.

Predictable??? Well, I guess federal laws can be broken when you have the $$$$ to buy your way out.

AMFA members lost??? Nay, I think the whole carrier lost, except for the golden parachute club. NWA just lost what... $1.2 Billion last quarter??? Nice job!!! A big win there for the fine Scab Air management team.

You know FM, I just don't know how AA does it without you..... 😛

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

AA has joined with the TWU to bring in another consultant to convince the TWU employees that they really need to "PULL TOGETHER WIN TOGETHER"

Sing it everybody!

I LOVE YOU
YOU LOVE ME
WE'RE ALL A HAPPY AA FAMILY
WITH GREAT BIG HUG
AND A KISS FROM ME TO YOU
WON'T YOU SAY YOU LOVE ME TOO?

I LOVE YOU
YOU LOVE ME
WE'RE BEST FRIENDS
LIKE FRIENDS SHOULD BE
WITH A GREAT BIG HUG
AND A KISS FROM ME TO YOU
WON'T YOU GIVE MORE CONCESSIONS TOO?

 

[brokenwrench]

"Our position shall be that the pilots, who gave a disproportionate share of the 2003 concessions which saved American Airlines from bankruptcy, shall share in the return of the profitability of our company," the board declared.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/15949299.htm


Lets see, the pilots say the performance of AA is likely to improve and they want to participate. The TWU says, hey things do not look so good. Do not get your hopes up.

Nice, company union to the last.

 

[Bob Owens]

"Our position shall be that the pilots, who gave a disproportionate share of the 2003 concessions which saved American Airlines from bankruptcy, shall share in the return of the profitability of our company," the board declared.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/15949299.htm
Lets see, the pilots say the performance of AA is likely to improve and they want to participate. The TWU says, hey things do not look so good. Do not get your hopes up.

Nice, company union to the last.

Disproportionate?

Lets see they went for a straight 25% paycut, then got back nearly 10% the first year. Then they got 1.5% like everyone else thereafter. They also got credit for all the additional savings that came down the road through workrule cahnges.

We gave up 25% through pay and benifit cuts then gave up an equal sum in workrule changes and job eliminations.

We wont even get back what the pilots got back the first year over the 6 years of this contract!!

The TWU has got to go. These guys didnt take any paycuts and they dont care about the members, in fact they blame us for their failure to lead!!!

 

[brokenwrench]

It is a good union policy that officers shouldn't earn so much that they drift away from the members.—Harry Bridges

 

[Bob Owens]

It is a good union policy that officers shouldn't earn so much that they drift away from the members.—Harry Bridges

Drift? These guys are in a jet boat!

 

[Chuck Schalk]

It is a good union policy that officers shouldn't earn so much that they drift away from the members.—Harry Bridges



The officers of the TWU ATD are peaching the good word of sacrifice yet, they lose nothing and continue to earn wages well in excess of 100,000 dollars. Where is the shaed sacrifice within our own union?