National Mediation Board

[getreal]

Can someone tell me the process and timetable.
And after all avenues have been exhausted, do you really think the membership
is strong enough to strike, and do you think Little would ever authorize a strike if both parties
were released. Finally, how long can AA drag this out.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Can someone tell me the process and timetable.
And after all avenues have been exhausted, do you really think the membership
is strong enough to strike, and do you think Little would ever authorize a strike if both parties
were released. Finally, how long can AA drag this out.

There is a cooling off period before any strike can take place.

The membership is only as strong as their leadership. At the local level I believe the leadership is capable of leading.

Jim Little would never authorize a strike. That would go against the company's wishes.

AA can drag this out as long as they want. (See the first comment above.)

The membership controls the union. Not the other way around.

 

[bigdawg52]

There is a cooling off period before any strike can take place.

The membership is only as strong as their leadership. At the local level I believe the leadership is capable of leading.

Jim Little would never authorize a strike. That would go against the company's wishes.

AA can drag this out as long as they want. (See the first comment above.)

The membership controls the union. Not the other way around.

I know this is way to early to speculate into the future, but is striking the best thing to do. Hear me out before I get blasted.

NWA perfect example went on strike, and look what happened to the majority of there employees, replaced.

We would be in the same boat from my way of thinking.

But my personal opinion which I have many, make the company suffer, which by all accounts is to work by the rules, and do the job in a safe manner.

Now I have 20 years with the company, and have worked with fellow workers(who have since) retired, and all have said the same thing to me, that is why I sayy it now, you make the company suffer by ther=ir rules not by us striking.

Please feel free to respond, in a nasty way if you must...

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I know this is way to early to speculate into the future, but is striking the best thing to do. Hear me out before I get blasted.

NWA perfect example went on strike, and look what happened to the majority of there employees, replaced.

We would be in the same boat from my way of thinking.

But my personal opinion which I have many, make the company suffer, which by all accounts is to work by the rules, and do the job in a safe manner.

Now I have 20 years with the company, and have worked with fellow workers(who have since) retired, and all have said the same thing to me, that is why I sayy it now, you make the company suffer by ther=ir rules not by us striking.

Please feel free to respond, in a nasty way if you must...

No nasty comments.

NWA AMTs went on strike because they had no option other than to strike. They were replaced by SCABS who did not know one end of a wrench from another. The striking AMTs would have won the strike had they not SCABBED their own strike. This is of course old news and different than any possible scenario that might take place at AA.

Any strike at AA by the AMTs would have to be initiated by a strike vote by the members, but a cooling off period would have to take place . I would expect discouragement from the international should this take place.

 

[TWU informer]

Actually you are all off target.

Following the law gets organized labor nowhere except the poor house. The laws are stacked against us. Until some labor leader comes along that opposes the belief that lobbying, funding politicians, and accepting weak and unfair laws comes along, you are all just argueing about nothing more than than the rich man's game of mind control and manipulation.

Read the history books. Labor's only significant advancements came as a direct result of uncontrollable behavior that teters on the edge of anarchy.

So just keep working your second and third jobs and stop acting as though the TWU, NMB, or the law is going to get you your due.

 

[Jackrla]

The fact is you do not get a release from mediation until the NMB gives you one. Typically, one side or the other, rarely both, request a release. The release comes in the form of the NMB "proffering" arbitration to the parties. When one side or the other refuses arbitration, the NMB notifies the parties that mediation is over and a 30 day cooling off period begins.
In all likelihood, AA would qualify for a Presidential Emergency Board.
After that, there is the chance of Congressional intervention if the PEB's recommendations are not accepted.
There are different forms of Congressional intervention - the lobbying skills need to be fine tuned.
The good news is that the unions have been quite successful in the more recent PEBs (not airline case).

 

[Bob Owens]

I know this is way to early to speculate into the future, but is striking the best thing to do. Hear me out before I get blasted.

NWA perfect example went on strike, and look what happened to the majority of there employees, replaced.

We would be in the same boat from my way of thinking.

But my personal opinion which I have many, make the company suffer, which by all accounts is to work by the rules, and do the job in a safe manner.

Now I have 20 years with the company, and have worked with fellow workers(who have since) retired, and all have said the same thing to me, that is why I sayy it now, you make the company suffer by ther=ir rules not by us striking.

Please feel free to respond, in a nasty way if you must...

I disagree. Be prepared for both. Never eliminate the option. Work to rule is the initial plan, if that doesnt work you must be prepared to strike.

The NWA example is one thats unlikey to be repeated anytime soon.

NWA solicted and prepared for a strike for over a year. They scrapped the bottom of the barrel to get enough mechanics to keep their fleet in the air and they had the full cooperation of the other unions on the property. It took all of these components in order for NWA to pull off breaking a single union on the property. NWA has never been the same and its very likely that it will in the near future cease to exist.

NWA was able to operate with roughly 2000 mechs. The smaller the workforce in relation to the pool of available workers the easier it is to replace those workers. Even then, despite the fact that this occured relatively shortly after 100,000 airline workers were put on the street, NWA had a difficult time replacing their mechanic workforce. Its doubtful that AA could even get that, NWA scapped the barrel dry. AA is already headed for trouble in maintaining its own headcount, despite the announced layoffs. They have cancelled all the VBRs in our area of the country and it appears the only place they are granting them is MCI, and most of those workers are not going back into the labor pool.

Despite what you may think A&P mechanics are in very short supply. The Vietnam era mechs are retiring at a rapid rate and there arent many available A&Ps out there waiting to fill the void. Even more have permanently left the industry. Others are still considering or working towards transitioning out. The exodus greatly outpaces the influx. I dont see ANY 20 year olds at work. My guess is the average age at JFK is over 50.

NWA was a one shot deal, lets not make it payoff for the whole industry with that kind of mindset.

If we were to go on strike the company could not operate. First of all we would be around 30,000 workers, of them 10,000 mechanics, plus flight dispathers, simulator technicians, stock clerks and fleet service workers. All of whom would have to have 10 year background checks and aquire airport access. We are talking a huge undertaking, much greater than what NWA had to do plus we would likely get more cooperation from the other unions on the property. I dont think we would see FAs driving Lav trucks and loading bags in the belly or pilots changing tires and oiling the engines. At NWA the IAM jumped at the opportunity to do work that was done by mechanics, with us the Fleet workers would be on the picket lines with us.

The NWA strike was a fluke, made possible by circumstances that would be near impossible to duplicate with us.

 

[Bob Owens]

The fact is you do not get a release from mediation until the NMB gives you one. Typically, one side or the other, rarely both, request a release. The release comes in the form of the NMB "proffering" arbitration to the parties. When one side or the other refuses arbitration, the NMB notifies the parties that mediation is over and a 30 day cooling off period begins.
In all likelihood, AA would qualify for a Presidential Emergency Board.
After that, there is the chance of Congressional intervention if the PEB's recommendations are not accepted.
There are different forms of Congressional intervention - the lobbying skills need to be fine tuned.
The good news is that the unions have been quite successful in the more recent PEBs (not airline case).

I'm not that familiar with the outcome of PEBS or the RLA in the rails but, in the airline industry the RLA has been subverted to be merely another tool for management. Any of the articles that provide some sort of balance or protection for workers has been nulified by Judges through other laws, such as Bankruptcy. The RLA is useless for airline workers. The NMB alomst exclusively rules in favor of the airlines. It has delayed workers from self help for years but if the company wants it they grant it almost immediately. When NWA mechanics were working without a contract for years and sought to restore their wages after decades of concessions the NMB forced AMFA to lower their demands, however a few years later when the tables were turned and the airline demanded huge concessions the NMB released the parties without delay. The NMB did not comment this time about the reasonableness of the demands.

The fact is there is no timeline for the NMB to declare an impass and you can count on the NMB to run interference for the company. That said its still important for workers to get into the system as early as possible because despite how things really work with the NMB they like to be able to present the fascade of impartiality and when they drag workers along for years and it can be shown how when the company wants an impass its declared almost immediately it gives workers more of a moral justification to act in contrary to the law.

 

[eolesen]

The NWA example is one thats unlikey to be repeated anytime soon.

Yet it was an almost exact copy of what happened at EAL... They took Lorenzo's playbook and improved on it to the extent they won the war of attrition.

Despite what you may think A&P mechanics are in very short supply.

Maybe in the US, but having just returned from Bogota, it doesn't appear there a shortage of American AMTs working down here... Given the opportunity to return home, they probably would do so in a heartbeat...

 

[lineguy43]

I disagree. Be prepared for both. Never eliminate the option. Work to rule is the initial plan, if that doesnt work you must be prepared to strike.

The NWA example is one thats unlikey to be repeated anytime soon.

NWA solicted and prepared for a strike for over a year. They scrapped the bottom of the barrel to get enough mechanics to keep their fleet in the air and they had the full cooperation of the other unions on the property. It took all of these components in order for NWA to pull off breaking a single union on the property. NWA has never been the same and its very likely that it will in the near future cease to exist.

NWA was able to operate with roughly 2000 mechs. The smaller the workforce in relation to the pool of available workers the easier it is to replace those workers. Even then, despite the fact that this occured relatively shortly after 100,000 airline workers were put on the street, NWA had a difficult time replacing their mechanic workforce. Its doubtful that AA could even get that, NWA scapped the barrel dry. AA is already headed for trouble in maintaining its own headcount, despite the announced layoffs. They have cancelled all the VBRs in our area of the country and it appears the only place they are granting them is MCI, and most of those workers are not going back into the labor pool.

Despite what you may think A&P mechanics are in very short supply. The Vietnam era mechs are retiring at a rapid rate and there arent many available A&Ps out there waiting to fill the void. Even more have permanently left the industry. Others are still considering or working towards transitioning out. The exodus greatly outpaces the influx. I dont see ANY 20 year olds at work. My guess is the average age at JFK is over 50.

NWA was a one shot deal, lets not make it payoff for the whole industry with that kind of mindset.

If we were to go on strike the company could not operate. First of all we would be around 30,000 workers, of them 10,000 mechanics, plus flight dispathers, simulator technicians, stock clerks and fleet service workers. All of whom would have to have 10 year background checks and aquire airport access. We are talking a huge undertaking, much greater than what NWA had to do plus we would likely get more cooperation from the other unions on the property. I dont think we would see FAs driving Lav trucks and loading bags in the belly or pilots changing tires and oiling the engines. At NWA the IAM jumped at the opportunity to do work that was done by mechanics, with us the Fleet workers would be on the picket lines with us.

The NWA strike was a fluke, made possible by circumstances that would be near impossible to duplicate with us.

Good post Bob, to add to that the FAA and the media also looked the other way when NWA was having problems the public never heard about it and an FAA inspector who was finding problems was reassigned to a desk job. Add to that the NMB gave AMFA an immediate release to cooling off then to strike how often does that happen? I will tell you NEVER the NMB is notorious for dragging things like that out forever. They did it for us because it was a strike that NWA wanted. It was union busting 101. Funny thing is they still almost didn't pull it off. We can thank a few of our own spineless co-workers who crossed and knew NW equipment that helped NWA.

 

[The Goose]

Good post Bob, to add to that the FAA and the media also looked the other way when NWA was having problems the public never heard about it and an FAA inspector who was finding problems was reassigned to a desk job. Add to that the NMB gave AMFA an immediate release to cooling off then to strike how often does that happen? I will tell you NEVER the NMB is notorious for dragging things like that out forever. They did it for us because it was a strike that NWA wanted. It was union busting 101. Funny thing is they still almost didn't pull it off. We can thank a few of our own spineless co-workers who crossed and knew NW equipment that helped NWA.

A former board member of NWA is Elaine Chou, presently the Secretary of Labor and the wife of Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell.

Does that answer any questions you still have?

 

[Bob Owens]

Yet it was an almost exact copy of what happened at EAL... They took Lorenzo's playbook and improved on it to the extent they won the war of attrition.

Wrong again Eolesen. NWA had the help of three other unions on the property. Without their help they would have failed, and they still may. Besides what did Lorenzo win? Where is EAL now? Its dead but its workers live on at AA, UA, and plenty of other places. By killing EAL they created opportunities at other carriers who expanded to fill the voids left by EALs demise.

Maybe in the US, but having just returned from Bogota, it doesn't appear there a shortage of American AMTs working down here... Given the opportunity to return home, they probably would do so in a heartbeat...

How many mechanics did you see in Bogota? 110, 1000, AA would need at least 4000 to keep the airline flying in the short term, over the long term they would still need OH. An airline the size of AA has never been on strike and generally the larger the workforce the harder it is to replace.

Given the opportunity to return home, they probably would do so in a heartbeat..

Big asumption there. I doubt that many mechs who may have gone to Bogota did so because they couldnt find jobs here. If anything they went there because their wages go a lot farther there than here so I doubt they are in line to be strike breakers back here. At least my assumptions come from the mind of a mechanic, so I'm probably better in tune to their thought process than you.

 

[lineguy43]

A former board member of NWA is Elaine Chou, presently the Secretary of Labor and the wife of Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell.

Does that answer any questions you still have?

Hey thanks I almost forgot about her...Ahh the conflict of interst runs deep here doesn't it.

 

[eolesen]

Besides what did Lorenzo win? Where is EAL now? Its dead but its workers live on at AA, UA, and plenty of other places. By killing EAL they created opportunities at other carriers who expanded to fill the voids left by EALs demise.

Perhaps, but Texas Air still profited from its death. CO got System One, who they turned around and sold to Amadeus & EDS at a profit. Lorenzo is by no means poorer for the experience --- SAS paid a premium to buy him and Texas Air out. SAS was subsequently taken to the cleaners in the second bankruptcy...

How many mechanics did you see in Bogota?

Avianca has all their overhaul at BOG, and the guys I talked to said there were a couple dozen former AMFA wrenches from IND & MSP who were recruited to go down to South America and be licensed A/P's supervising the non-licensed techs.

Maybe being former union members they're less likely to cross a picket line, but at the same time, living a couple thousand miles away from your home country does grow old after a while...


E

 

[MCI transplant]

Perhaps, but Texas Air still profited from its death. CO got System One, who they turned around and sold to Amadeus & EDS at a profit. Lorenzo is by no means poorer for the experience --- SAS paid a premium to buy him and Texas Air out. SAS was subsequently taken to the cleaners in the second bankruptcy...




Avianca has all their overhaul at BOG, and the guys I talked to said there were a couple dozen former AMFA wrenches from IND & MSP who were recruited to go down to South America and be licensed A/P's supervising the non-licensed techs.

Maybe being former union members they're less likely to cross a picket line, but at the same time, living a couple thousand miles away from your home country does grow old after a while...


E

<_< ------And taking on the responsibility of signing off "non -licensed techs" work takes a tole on people also!