Negotiations update?

[FWAAA]

FWAAA, so exactly what was their "non-risk" compensation last year?

Won't know 2010 numbers until late April when the Proxy Statement is filed, but in 2009, Arpey's base salary was $670k and Horton's was $618k. Admittedly, both numbers are higher than many would like to see given the dismal performance of the company. Those salaries are about eight to nine times the average AA employee wage. Certainly would be valid to argue that their guaranteed wage should be something much lower in exchange for the possibility of earning several million per year in variable pay.

 

[AANOTOK]

Won't know 2010 numbers until late April when the Proxy Statement is filed, but in 2009, Arpey's base salary was $670k and Horton's was $618k. Admittedly, both numbers are higher than many would like to see given the dismal performance of the company. Those salaries are about eight to nine times the average AA employee wage. Certainly would be valid to argue that their guaranteed wage should be something much lower in exchange for the possibility of earning several million per year in variable pay.

My point exactly, thanks!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Won't know 2010 numbers until late April when the Proxy Statement is filed, but in 2009, Arpey's base salary was $670k and Horton's was $618k. Admittedly, both numbers are higher than many would like to see given the dismal performance of the company. Those salaries are about eight to nine times the average AA employee wage. Certainly would be valid to argue that their guaranteed wage should be something much lower in exchange for the possibility of earning several million per year in variable pay.

The board hasn't the balls to take care of the problem - I'd be willing to bet a couple years of $100k salaries (with no other income) would do two things:

1) Scare hell out of the parasites - if they truly had any talent, they would have been gone by now and,
2) Hopefully show the BOD what a bunch of fools they tolerated.

Not sure re: #2 - so far, they've not gotten it.

 

[FWAAA]

The board hasn't the balls to take care of the problem - I'd be willing to bet a couple years of $100k salaries (with no other income) would do two things:

1) Scare hell out of the parasites - if they truly had any talent, they would have been gone by now and,
2) Hopefully show the BOD what a bunch of fools they tolerated.

Not sure re: #2 - so far, they've not gotten it.

Maybe you're right. As to point #1, maybe they are just talented enough to make more money if they left to work elsewhere, but they're addicted to the airline business? The way the former TWA FAs who will quit other jobs just so they can go back to their first love: flying as FAs?

Anyway, if their pay was cut to $100k for a couple of years, I assume they'd quit. They may be addicted to airlines, but not to the point of working for next to nothing. At $100k, they'd make less than just about every AA pilot. So who would replace them? For $100k? For good or bad, many brand new MBAs get more than that on Day 1 of their first real job.

 

[AANOTOK]

Maybe you're right. As to point #1, maybe they are just talented enough to make more money if they left to work elsewhere, but they're addicted to the airline business? The way the former TWA FAs who will quit other jobs just so they can go back to their first love: flying as FAs?

Anyway, if their pay was cut to $100k for a couple of years, I assume they'd quit. They may be addicted to airlines, but not to the point of working for next to nothing. At $100k, they'd make less than just about every AA pilot. So who would replace them? For $100k? For good or bad, many brand new MBAs get more than that on Day 1 of their first real job.

Why in the world would they leave? Where else can you go make $650,000 plus (and that's "non-risk") usually millions, to get the credit for keeping a company out of bankruptcy.
Not make a profit, lose billions over the last ten plus years and yet still make a comfortable living. Any other industry, and probably airline, and you are employed elsewhere. A very nice relationship with the BOD I must say.

 

[paul1]

Maybe you're right. As to point #1, maybe they are just talented enough to make more money if they left to work elsewhere, but they're addicted to the airline business? The way the former TWA FAs who will quit other jobs just so they can go back to their first love: flying as FAs?

Anyway, if their pay was cut to $100k for a couple of years, I assume they'd quit. They may be addicted to airlines, but not to the point of working for next to nothing. At $100k, they'd make less than just about every AA pilot. So who would replace them? For $100k? For good or bad, many brand new MBAs get more than that on Day 1 of their first real job.

former F/A addicted to the job give me a break. Its not about flying, its about not working all year and getting there benefits (except for a few starting out and really struggling to make ends meat)

 

[boston]

former F/A addicted to the job give me a break. Its not about flying, its about not working all year and getting there benefits (except for a few starting out and really struggling to make ends meat)

Not sure if your a F/A, but I don't think you are. Not fly all year, most of work 80-110hrs per month all year. Like I said you may or may not be a f/a,but if you are you know how difficult that is, being on duty often up to 14hrs per day for a 2-4 day trip, go home and start it all up again. Home, do you laundry,cook, grocery shop, pack meals for the road and ones kids. Oh, I for got, get in enough workouts per week,so the posters on the forums don't accuse us of being so FAT, and MD,visits, gas the car.

I don't think your a f/a, pilot,mechanic,agent nor a mgr in the airlines. If you are,

God help you

 

[Vortilon]

former F/A addicted to the job give me a break. Its not about flying, its about not working all year and getting there benefits (except for a few starting out and really struggling to make ends meat)

Obviously, you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. Regarding F/As work schedules, or the the AMP card drive.

JUST TROLLING..... <_<

 

[joemechanic]

The roll call vote is part of Robert's Rules of Order. It is incorporated in AMP's Constitution, and used by most labor organizations to govern how they conduct business. In prior negotiations, the roll call vote was used by TUL to shootdown TA's that didn't benefit TUL.
Again, in a perfect world, one station-one vote! Not with TUL having the numbers. The Line stations will always have a disadvantage in negotiations because of that threat. The structure of the process should benefit ALL, and not just TUL.

Hey Strike, Thanks for bringing to the AMP debate what is the core issue with many of us. My suggestion would be that if the AMP steering group is genuine in their goal of a fair and balanced Union representation, they might consider a structure that would have a National that would oversee TWO lower divisions - Ovrhaul Division & Line Division with the money coming in to be weighted accordingly. This would be a great time to hear what PITBULL has to add to the discussion.

 

[Bob Owens]

They may be addicted to airlines, but not to the point of working for next to nothing.

So you are admitting that the airlines pay most of their workers next to nothing? Even UPS mechanics only top out at $104,270.40/year. Our pay is around $40,000 less than that.

Just flew from DFW to LGA last night. Took four flights before I could get on. Nothing but full planes and thats on a Thursday in the middle of February.

When I lfinally got to New York I ran into an ex-AA mechanic who quit in AA 2006 to become a Port Authority cop, said he enjoyed working on the planes while with AA but is much happier working for the Port. Hopefully when we go on strike he will remember where he came from and cut us some slack on the picket lines.


Its funny how the law of supply and demand doesnt apply to MBAs. We produce a lot more MBAs than any other country, certainly have more MBAs waiting tables than Aircraft mechanics, certainly produce more MBAs than A&Ps yet $100k is less than starting pay, if they can find a job. With the abundance of MBAs out there shouldnt the price be going down? Or is it a case of self interests governing over the free market, where MBAs would rather have thousands of MBAs waiting tables or working as bank tellers but still pay exhorbitantly high salaries to the few they hire because it's in their self interests to do so? Then they preach to the rest of Society the merits of the Free market system and how lower wages and less benifits are simply inevitable, that resistance is futile and we should reject those pesky, agitative organizations known as unions.

 

[strikeforce]

Hey Strike, Thanks for bringing to the AMP debate what is the core issue with many of us. My suggestion would be that if the AMP steering group is genuine in their goal of a fair and balanced Union representation, they might consider a structure that would have a National that would oversee TWO lower divisions - Ovrhaul Division & Line Division with the money coming in to be weighted accordingly. This would be a great time to hear what PITBULL has to add to the discussion.

There are many core issues regarding negotiations. It's not necessarily divisions between OH & Line, as much as setting up a structure where we all have an equal say and vote regarding particular issues related to either OH or Line. For example, I don't believe the Bases should have a say on Geo pay, Line pay, License prem., overtime, shift prem. (midnight retention), labor loaning, Taxi prem.?, etc for line mechanics. OH & Line are two different animals, and should be treated as such. Therefore, the bases and line may require seperate negotiating teams & in seperate rooms to discuss their own pay, and work rules. Similar to the Maint. Control Techs that negotiate their own terms. Like I said before TUL shouldn't hold the Line hostage if the company sees a greater value in Line ops. and wishes to provide greater compensation to the line mechanics over base mechanics. The bases have benefited immensely at the hands of the Line Mechanics. It's no different than most that argue that the ramp guys are way overpaid, as compared to similar work in other industries. This is no different. AMP has it's hands full trying to appease the numbers, as well as, compensating Line guys accordingly. Remember, the TWU is more of an idustrialized union where they see no difference between a structures mechanic, line mechanic, plant mechanic, or tool and diemaker. That would be similar to saying that ALL capt's, or co-pilots should be paid the same, without regard to aircraft type.
If AMP represents itself as fair and balanced, then they must address the issues I just raised.

 

[joemechanic]

There are many core issues regarding negotiations. It's not necessarily divisions between OH & Line, as much as setting up a structure where we all have an equal say and vote regarding particular issues related to either OH or Line. For example, I don't believe the Bases should have a say on Geo pay, Line pay, License prem., overtime, shift prem. (midnight retention), labor loaning, Taxi prem.?, etc for line mechanics. OH & Line are two different animals, and should be treated as such. Therefore, the bases and line may require seperate negotiating teams & in seperate rooms to discuss their own pay, and work rules. Similar to the Maint. Control Techs that negotiate their own terms. Like I said before TUL shouldn't hold the Line hostage if the company sees a greater value in Line ops. and wishes to provide greater compensation to the line mechanics over base mechanics. The bases have benefited immensely at the hands of the Line Mechanics. It's no different than most that argue that the ramp guys are way overpaid, as compared to similar work in other industries. This is no different. AMP has it's hands full trying to appease the numbers, as well as, compensating Line guys accordingly. Remember, the TWU is more of an idustrialized union where they see no difference between a structures mechanic, line mechanic, plant mechanic, or tool and diemaker. That would be similar to saying that ALL capt's, or co-pilots should be paid the same, without regard to aircraft type.
If AMP represents itself as fair and balanced, then they must address the issues I just raised.

Great info. Would be great to hear from AMP on this discussion!

 

[Frank Szabo]

There are many core issues regarding negotiations. It's not necessarily divisions between OH & Line, as much as setting up a structure where we all have an equal say and vote regarding particular issues related to either OH or Line. For example, I don't believe the Bases should have a say on Geo pay, Line pay, License prem., overtime, shift prem. (midnight retention), labor loaning, Taxi prem.?, etc for line mechanics. OH & Line are two different animals, and should be treated as such. Therefore, the bases and line may require seperate negotiating teams & in seperate rooms to discuss their own pay, and work rules. Similar to the Maint. Control Techs that negotiate their own terms. Like I said before TUL shouldn't hold the Line hostage if the company sees a greater value in Line ops. and wishes to provide greater compensation to the line mechanics over base mechanics. The bases have benefited immensely at the hands of the Line Mechanics. It's no different than most that argue that the ramp guys are way overpaid, as compared to similar work in other industries. This is no different. AMP has it's hands full trying to appease the numbers, as well as, compensating Line guys accordingly. Remember, the TWU is more of an idustrialized union where they see no difference between a structures mechanic, line mechanic, plant mechanic, or tool and diemaker. That would be similar to saying that ALL capt's, or co-pilots should be paid the same, without regard to aircraft type.
If AMP represents itself as fair and balanced, then they must address the issues I just raised.

When you say the TWU makes no distinction between Line and Overhaul, I'll agree with you in a way but - the "no-distinction" part would seem to be the choice of the TWU International and not the choice of any of the "represented" entities (line or base). It could easily be reversed under AMP or any other representative entity in which case neither 'side' of those represented would be dealt with fairly.

The TWU had the option of representing line as its own critter but one of the illustrious presidents of the negotiation committee said "hell no".

Neither points at "industrial union" or "airline union" in particular, rather, it says loads about the international's attitude towards those who pay its salary - basically, that's all we are - nothing more than a group to keep high in number for dues collections.

 

[eolesen]

Its funny how the law of supply and demand doesnt apply to MBAs. We produce a lot more MBAs than any other country, certainly have more MBAs waiting tables than Aircraft mechanics, certainly produce more MBAs than A&Ps yet $100k is less than starting pay, if they can find a job.

Supply and demand is alive and well there, too, Bob.

Go watch the movie "The Company Men". It's only out in Bostonese, so you may need to wait until it is out on DVD with subtitles in English. You'll enjoy how it portrays corporate greed, but I think the storyline is fairly realistic for both the Chris Cooper and Ben Affleck characters.

Not only is starting pay for an experienced MBA is still less than what they were making elsewhere, but as you see in the movie, there's a larger candidate pool to choose from. Just like with AMTs, newly minted MBAs are the ones are essentially screwed, but working a few years at minimum wage will no doubt give many of them a much different perspective when they finally do find a real paying job.

 

[lpbrian]

Supply and demand is alive and well there, too, Bob.

Go watch the movie "The Company Men". It's only out in Bostonese, so you may need to wait until it is out on DVD with subtitles in English. You'll enjoy how it portrays corporate greed, but I think the storyline is fairly realistic for both the Chris Cooper and Ben Affleck characters.

Not only is starting pay for an experienced MBA is still less than what they were making elsewhere, but as you see in the movie, there's a larger candidate pool to choose from. Just like with AMTs, newly minted MBAs are the ones are essentially screwed, but working a few years at minimum wage will no doubt give many of them a much different perspective when they finally do find a real paying job.

I would think there are far fewer A&P's on the market than MBA's. My A&P school no longer has an A&P Program. Several other A&P programs in my area have shut down, MDW's AA A&P, Gone...Blackhawk, Janesville, gone..Gateway Tech, Kenosha, A&P program replaced by a Diesel tech... Only MATC remains.