Negotiations
- Thread starter Buckky
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MERV
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Basically they're getting their extension from their employees by dragging the negotiations out. they also can see what the other carriers will give their employees as compensation. Some of the carriers contracts are up. DL is giving pay raises to their employees. After the union gets voted in/out they will renegotiate contracts. They can wait enough that can see the pay scale of the others they'll have some competitive edge still. If they play it right.
Back in the day you could count on "getting what they got" when it came to other carrier negotiations.
Now it is play the RLA rules to the max ! I hope the TWU reminds AA of how long it's been since a TRUE structural raise has been granted and that with their stalling tactics they are getting a free extension! All the more reason for retro .
There is no reason to push anything until the Teamsters and the IAM obtain contracts the TWU would never beg from AA.
From all accounts, TUL and AFW are willing to use the roll-call if they are told by AA that the figure is so high that it makes sense to spin off overhaul.
The TWU is praying for an opportunity to go to Binding Arbitration or a PEB after the other carriers negotiate a contract: our problem is that AA has positioned themselves so low by hanging the DBP, Retiree Medical and Overhaul into the equation that a full snapback to the 2003 contract will leave us far below the other carriers.
Typically, an Arbitrator splits the baby: with overhaul refusing to ask for enough that would be an endpoint at what other carriers are currently negotiating, we end up at 15-20% below what the industry leading standard becomes but at more than enough numbers employed to insure the TWU a windfall. To that end, we may want to exhaust the thirty day clock and hope that the current Administration empanels a PEB.
In any event, prepare for the worst case scenario: if it doesn't happen, you are that much better off.
From all accounts, TUL and AFW are willing to use the roll-call if they are told by AA that the figure is so high that it makes sense to spin off overhaul.
The TWU is praying for an opportunity to go to Binding Arbitration or a PEB after the other carriers negotiate a contract: our problem is that AA has positioned themselves so low by hanging the DBP, Retiree Medical and Overhaul into the equation that a full snapback to the 2003 contract will leave us far below the other carriers.
Typically, an Arbitrator splits the baby: with overhaul refusing to ask for enough that would be an endpoint at what other carriers are currently negotiating, we end up at 15-20% below what the industry leading standard becomes but at more than enough numbers employed to insure the TWU a windfall. To that end, we may want to exhaust the thirty day clock and hope that the current Administration empanels a PEB.
In any event, prepare for the worst case scenario: if it doesn't happen, you are that much better off.
The impression I've recieved from AFW is that they want, if not an ILC,at the very minimum full restoration(inflation adjusted). Our current table position falls short of that.
I've never heard AFW advocate using the roll call to bring back another concessionary contract. In fact AFW has been more receptive to going for an ILC than some of the line stations (AFW even supported GEO pay while ORD ,MIA , SFO and others voted against it). I recently made a motion to change our proposal to $6.49 per license (That would put us just over Non-Union Fed Ex), 5% for afternoon shift, 10% for nights(which is standard for most industries where people work 24/7/365), all OT paid at 2X(which is standard for unionized licensed skilled workers such as electricians , plumbers etc), and OT pay if assigned to work the Sabbath (to discourage the company from making their employees choose between following their faith or feeding their family). AFW voted in favor of it along with LAX, DCA and of course New York. Everyone else voted against it.
My concern is that as the company keeps going lower and we remain with a proposal that is not industry leading, plus the fact that we came down to meet the company not just once but twice (August 2008 and June 2009),that should we end up in Arbitration or a PEB that we will end up with a contract thats intolerably substandard.
At a recent meeting with a member of management where we were discussing the decline in performance I told him that just getting the contract settled would not remedy the problem, which I said was likely to get worse, unlike the past where we simply licked our wounds, made deals and moved on thats no longer an option, we have to get a contract that meets our members economic needs and allows them to fulfill their committments to their families. The August 2008 and June 2009 supposals dont come close.
We are currently number eight out of the top ten carriers, Delta , a non-union carrier just moved ahead of us leaving only UAL (which is currently in negotiations and has not released their economic proposal yet) and USAIR behind us. American Airlines aspires to be number one in everything except pay for their unionized emplyees , where they aspire to be number 10. Their aspirations are "pie in the sky" and unrealistic. If they get one they will never get the other. We're willing to do whatever we can to make and keep AA number one as long as they keep us at number one, to me thats a perfectly realistic and fair position to take.
It's absolutely NO Wonder why AA's union people are in the poor ($$$) position they're in.
(Think Major Hubs and majority membership in states like TX/OK and FL), and lets not forget about the "lily livered" wimps from ORD these past decades !
Now, Imagine an AA with strongholds in places like DTW/MSP/SEA along with the NY's/DCA's and BOS's.
Think AMR would be still dragging there feet at this point, given the "above" hypothetical ?
HDQ would have locked up a loooong term contract with sizeable raises loooong ago !
(Think Major Hubs and majority membership in states like TX/OK and FL), and lets not forget about the "lily livered" wimps from ORD these past decades !
Now, Imagine an AA with strongholds in places like DTW/MSP/SEA along with the NY's/DCA's and BOS's.
Think AMR would be still dragging there feet at this point, given the "above" hypothetical ?
HDQ would have locked up a loooong term contract with sizeable raises loooong ago !
eolesen
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Bears, how's that virtual sex change working out? 😉
If AA is now eighth out of ten in pay, then I guess you'd better grab your socks and brace, because AA is last out of ten in terms of profitability. Where exactly do you expect the raises to come from? The question has been asked a couple times without any real answers.
Best outcome you can hope for is status quo with gainsharing or variable comp.
Try going for a baseline off something like current EBITDA operating margins (i.e. income minus expenses *before* taxes, depreciation, amortization, and special accounting adjustments) as of date of signing; for every $X M *improvement* in operating margin, the first X% gets set aside for gainsharing, with Y% going to the TWU.
And while you're at it, make any demand for concessions recipricol -- starting with management ditching their PSP/PUP plans, and going into whatever gainsharing plan you guys come up with.
As margins improve, so will your annual pay. Not a difficult concept to grasp, and by baselining it off the current margin, you don't have to worry about management "cooking the books" like they supposedly do to prevent the current Profit Sharing triggers from being reached.
If AA is now eighth out of ten in pay, then I guess you'd better grab your socks and brace, because AA is last out of ten in terms of profitability. Where exactly do you expect the raises to come from? The question has been asked a couple times without any real answers.
Best outcome you can hope for is status quo with gainsharing or variable comp.
Try going for a baseline off something like current EBITDA operating margins (i.e. income minus expenses *before* taxes, depreciation, amortization, and special accounting adjustments) as of date of signing; for every $X M *improvement* in operating margin, the first X% gets set aside for gainsharing, with Y% going to the TWU.
And while you're at it, make any demand for concessions recipricol -- starting with management ditching their PSP/PUP plans, and going into whatever gainsharing plan you guys come up with.
As margins improve, so will your annual pay. Not a difficult concept to grasp, and by baselining it off the current margin, you don't have to worry about management "cooking the books" like they supposedly do to prevent the current Profit Sharing triggers from being reached.
Need to start with More Eagle flying First,................................then..........,
(and I'm not talking "barbie jets" here)
E190's/195's would do nicely, allowing the junior AA guys to fly them at a greatly reduced pay rate.
It's Not rocket science.
(and I'm not talking "barbie jets" here)
E190's/195's would do nicely, allowing the junior AA guys to fly them at a greatly reduced pay rate.
It's Not rocket science.
Perhaps you could explain just how this financial thing-a-ma-jig works. AMR has lost, in the virtual reality world of numbers, just over $10,000,000,000 over the last 9 years. What if the compAAny were to loose a billion or two more over the next couple of years by giving raises to their union employees? It just doesn't seem to matter how much this compAAny looses, they just stay in business regardless. :huh:
If you believe some of the local Dallas blogs there is progress and movement closer together, including a structural raise. Never expected it to be restore and more, but bumping up the base is a very good thing. Add in the payouts and it's movement in the right direction.
I think I remember the Moderators making it perfectly Clear to NOT be claiming that members be "charged" with being someone else !
I have my opinions, and play by the Rules.
Perhaps you might want to as well ?
Thank You.
respectfully,
joanne
T
The Goose
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Jo:
If you're not aware, Eolesen evidently was a moderator on this board at one time or another in the past, perhaps holding a "specialness" re: board conduct the rest of us aren't privy to.
Almost half the aggregate losses over the past decade were non-cash special items like writedowns of old airplanes or writeoffs of goodwill and the other half (representing real cash lost) was covered by new borrowing, furniture burning and sales of new stock. The non-cash items were for cash spent in prior years for things that lost their value much faster than expected.
Between the pilots, FAs, mechanics and fleet, the represented workgroups are demanding raises that would cost AA between $3 billion and $4 billion more each year, and wages must be paid in cash - unlike the "paper" losses suffered by AA over the past decade.
I don't see an extra $3 billion or more each year in AA's 2009 financials nor do I expect to see them this year or next. I doubt anyone would loan AA a few billion if the plan was to spend it on wages. Loans can be had for terminals and airplanes and other capital investments, but not on-going operating losses. Everyone deserves raises, but where's the extra cash?
I wasn't aware of "it" in either scenario, however I'm grateful to you for taking the time/effort to inform me.
joanne
