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Negotiations

Jo:

If you're not aware, Eolesen evidently was a moderator on this board at one time or another in the past, perhaps holding a "specialness" re: board conduct the rest of us aren't privy to.

Please get your facts straight before insulting my ethics, Goose. I've never been a moderator on USAv, and would rather have the ability to call a bear a bear when I see one.

I spent ten years moderating on other sites, and the only consideration I've received here is the occasional "you should know better and we don't need to explain ourselves" message when one of my posts has been whacked or I've been sent to the cornfield.


FWAAA, I agree that you don't borrow money to give out raises. All I'm suggesting is that the unions need to take an approach of having a percentage of forward operating margins be set aside for employees. It's got to be tangible and attainable, unlike the current profit sharing methodology, and it's got to be one-size-fits-all from bottom to top.
 
Please get your facts straight before insulting my ethics, Goose. I've never been a moderator on USAv, and would rather have the ability to call a bear a bear when I see one.
If that's the situation (your never having been a moderator of this site), I apologize to you.

(added 1103, 11 feb)


Jo:

Please take note - evidently, it's not the case.
 
FWAAA, I agree that you don't borrow money to give out raises. All I'm suggesting is that the unions need to take an approach of having a percentage of forward operating margins be set aside for employees. It's got to be tangible and attainable, unlike the current profit sharing methodology, and it's got to be one-size-fits-all from bottom to top.

Excellent point. The profit-sharing plan in the 2003 concessions was a cruel joke - it was clear in April, 2003 that employees would never see much return from that plan.

You and I have disgreed about the PUP/PSP plans since the first payout of the last decade. I've never believed that canceling those payouts would have generated much positive goodwill among the rank and file, but I'm probably mistaken.

My view was that management at every other legacy airline (except CO) took a huge bundle of new stock upon exit from Ch 11 and the PUP/PSP payouts were of comparable size. And unlike the airlines that canceled their old stock in bankruptcy, AA management presided over a rebound from $1.25/sh to $41/sh in less than four years. Plus a small return to profitability in 2006-07 until the oil spike killed profits.

Nevertheless, the better method for rewarding management for the turnaround (and stock rebound) might have been thru greatly expanded stock option grants in April, 2003. That way, the execs could have sold their stock with much less fanfare. Most of the union members would have been none the wiser.
 
We arent even asking for all we gave back, the company would still be ahead of the game by around $5/hr for most mechanics. If the company got what they were asking for we would need a $20/hr raise in 2015 to catch up to where we were in 2003 (3%cpi).
 
What amazes me is that there are those who call us unrealistic and even greedy for asking what we are asking for. They seem to ignore the fact that we would not even get everything we gave up almost SEVEN years ago?
Imagine that...asking for something they took SEVEN years ago!!!!

Heaven forbid..we wouldn't want to put AA in financial straits....There was no problem taking billions from employees to stave off bankruptcy...

This company could post hundreds of millions of dollars and they will not give us anything substantial in return..There will always be an excuse not to pay someone unless they are the priviliged elitists at the top.
 
If you click on the image in my previous post you can see a graph of what the company is offering. (The 2004 point is an error, the initial drop from 2003 to 2004 was steeper than the graph indicates but the picture is pretty much the same.)The extra holidays at 2x are factored in, they are worth 69 cents an hour. As you can see not only is it concessionary but its more concessionary than the period from 2004 to 2008 , the period from 2008 to 2015 is steeper than the period from 2004 to 2008.

So by the end of their offer our real pay would be diminished by over 50%, in addition they want to outsource more work, bring in more ASMs, and get rid of system protection for thousands of workers so they could cut jobs even faster than they are being cut by attrition, currently 300 to 400 a year, and there's more!. And in return for their generosity the company wants us to agree in writing to do everything we can to make them number one. The only way we could see structural wages is if those below us, who have gone bankrupt, get raises that bring them above us and we are capped to, at best, 3% a year.

Is there really anybody out there who can say that this is a reasonable offer?
 
Nobody's disputing the need for raises or whether or not it is reasonable. But nowhere in all these grand charts and statistics do I see anything explaining how it is sustainable for the company to fund it at the current staffing levels.

You guys say you don't directly affect revenues, and third party revenue is no guarantee, so the only alternative is an offset.

Either you increase productivity, or you need to figure out which guys don't have a seat in the lifeboat via an early out or furloughs.
 
Nobody's disputing the need for raises or whether or not it is reasonable. But nowhere in all these grand charts and statistics do I see anything explaining how it is sustainable for the company to fund it at the current staffing levels.

You guys say you don't directly affect revenues, and third party revenue is no guarantee, so the only alternative is an offset.

Either you increase productivity, or you need to figure out which guys don't have a seat in the lifeboat via an early out or furloughs.

Your position may have changed but the company's hasnt, their offer still includes ZERO structural raises for six years.

Our staffing levels have decreased by over 35%, they have decreased faster than the volume of work which means we have already delivered a substantial productivity improvements and in return we recieved continued wage decreases in real terms. Like I've said many times before our staffing levels look high compared to other carriers because we do work in house and because management is top heavy, but if you look internally and historically we have seen huge staffing reductions and increased productivity. You cant look at our Labor costs as a stand alone figure and make any determination from that , you have to look at how it offsets the costs of sending the work out, the quality of the work, the turnaround time, the material costs etc etc. If at the end of the day, and the company refuses to answer this question, we can produce ASMs cheaper by doing it in house then our higher labor costs mean nothing. The fact that the company has not taken a position saying that it costs more to produce an ASM in house than outsourcing is an answer in itself, if they had such a self serving fact they would have used it and they havent. In fact information disclosed a few months ago at the last Presidents council indicated that even with in house OH maintenace our ASM costs were competitive.

I am agreeable to productivity improvements, always have been, as long as there is some quid pro quo, and I'm sorry they can stick their "You still have a job" quip where the sun dont shine.

As far as headcount reduction they can reduce as long as they dont furlough, I argued for the VBRs and told Local management to satisfy recalls and transfers but dont hire anybody new until we fix the compensation problem, our guys would rather have the OT than new coworkers, but it was management that claimed they cant afford to let anybody go and no we are not giving up work. Increasing productivity doesnt mean giving up work it means doing more, but they have to be willing to give more, in real terms.

If management wants a race to the bottom (where we all really lose), I'm sure that we could put them to the bottom before they put us to the bottom despite the lead they have. Its their choice, we arent looking for a fight, we are looking to be treated fairly and willing to fight if that what it takes.
 
We arent even asking for all we gave back, the company would still be ahead of the game by around $5/hr for most mechanics. If the company got what they were asking for we would need a $20/hr raise in 2015 to catch up to where we were in 2003 (3%cpi).


GET WHAT YOU CAN GET!!!!!!!

because the BIG three will take what they can get their greedy hands on.
 
Nobody's disputing the need for raises or whether or not it is reasonable. But nowhere in all these grand charts and statistics do I see anything explaining how it is sustainable for the company to fund it at the current staffing levels.

You guys say you don't directly affect revenues, and third party revenue is no guarantee, so the only alternative is an offset.

Either you increase productivity, or you need to figure out which guys don't have a seat in the lifeboat via an early out or furloughs.


The company is only funding at the current staff level of ONE, with a little assistant from the BIG three.

A little bump in the road doesn't affect revenue. and what third party, it only take two to tango, or are we going to have a threesome.

what productivity, the BIG three are max out. the lifeboat is full of holes and already deep six, so you should be already treading the compAAny puddle, or have a floaty. because deep six is not a option.
 

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