new premium class amenities

[Bob Owens]

No, no one will pay more for pajamas. As you know, airfares (especially premium class fares) are generally the same no matter the airline.

By differentiating the product, AA hopes to attract an additional fare away from UA/CO or DL/AF/KLM or USAir. Maybe things like this will work in selling a ticket to someone who would otherwise fly a competitor. Maybe not. Maybe superior service offerings will help attract/retain corporate contracts that would otherwise go to a competitor.

That's how airlines compete for premium customers: fancy seats and nice meals and quality wines, etc. Even sleep-assisting amenities like the ones announced recently by AA. The airline that attracts more premium customers than the others will succeed. The airlines that lag - well, they lose. They eventually file for Ch 11 protection, gut wages and benefits and cancel the stock of their stockholders. Their pilots see their pensions slashed and replaced with notes, promises and new stock.

Really? So what does WN do to attract premium customers? They dont waste a lot of cabin space and provide a lot of amenities in search of "premium Passengers" yet they have always shown a profit, never threatened bankruptcy and pay their mechs over $25k/yr more than AA does.

Despite the widespread belief on this forum that the Ch 11 process is all rainbows and unicorns for the employees at the airlines where that has happened, the employees at those airlines know how they have fared.

Widespread belief? I've never seen anybody describe the process as you claim they have.

AA can't afford your current pay, let alone afford to increase your pay. During 2008, 2009, 2010 and the first half of this year, AA has lost billions of dollars.

Have they? Or did they lose Billions of dollars that never existed anywhere but a spread sheet? Things such as the $988 million in "Goodwill" that they lost in 2002 and other legal but intangible assetts that they've written off over the years? They cant afford to pay us but they can buy 460 more new airplanes in addition to those they already had on order.

Yes, revenues are up substantially from the post-September 11 lows. Revenues in those lean years were not enough to pay the bills in those years, leading to huge losses in those years. Fuel is up by billions of dollars per year and wages are down by about $1.6 billion per year. AA lost billions in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and has lost billions in the aggregate in 2008, 2009, 2010 and this yearl. Your massive concessions in 2003 ($1.62 billion per year from the represented workgroups or about $9 billion so far) wasn't enough to cover the more than $20 billion increase in fuel over the past 8 and a half years (compared to fuel costs in 2001-03).

Between the increased revenue and the cost cutting it more than covered the $20billion in increased fuel over the last eight years.

Yes, the 2003 concessions were huge. Problem is, they weren't huge enough. To make ends meet, AA has burned a lot of furniture since then (billions of dollars worth) and borrowed billions of dollars since 2003. Additionally, AMR sold billions of dollars of new stock to investors since 2003.

If things were as bad as you say why would anybody buy that new stock? How much did you buy? Didnt they also cut some sort of a private bond deal?

I have no idea what BA pays. Are you planning to apply for a job with BA? In NYC or London? Good luck.

No but if you want to make comparasions then lets make comparasions.

 

[nyc6035]

This grievance has hit the passenger "blogosphere." Not a good look for APFA from a PR perspective if you read through the passenger pov:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/onemileatatime/2011/09/03/american-airlines-flight-attendant-union-files-grievance-over-first-class-turndown-service/#comments


That said IORFA - I acknowledge the point you made about the service being provided while this is grieved. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Frank Szabo]

This grievance has hit the passenger "blogosphere." Not a good look for APFA from a PR perspective if you read through the passenger pov:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/onemileatatime/2011/09/03/american-airlines-flight-attendant-union-files-grievance-over-first-class-turndown-service/#comments


That said IORFA - I acknowledge the point you made about the service being provided while this is grieved. Thanks for the clarification.

It sounded to me as if many of those supposed "passengers" posting on the boarding area were every bit as spoiled rotten as they claim the FAs are.

 

[nbmcg01]

It sounded to me as if many of those supposed "passengers" posting on the boarding area were every bit as spoiled rotten as they claim the FAs are.

I read the comments..lol $20,000 for a ticket? The US carriers will NEVER be viewed like the Asian carriers. Totally different culture and a small matter of age discriminationwith the foreign groups. I'm guessing the a good % of responders do not fly f/c. The food cannot be blamed on the f/a. That is a corporate decision. Same with wine and other service amenities. I fly f/c full fare and have had exceptional service out of ORD. The DFW crews were not as impressive but they were YOUNGER (lol). MIA is a world of its own and have never had a complaint with the service received. Folks, this is transportation, safely provided from point A to point B. The service is simply a way to pass time during your time in a long thin tube. There is no excuse for rude behavior from the crew or the passenger. But them I'm not a duvet fluffing kind of woman which is why I LOVED flying domestic. If you want to be fawned over, fly an Asian carrier. If you want teeny tiny little girls fluffing your pillows, fly an Asian carrier. If you are an adult and realize that we're taliking about transportation not a "spa", fly whomever has the best schedule and price, and don't complain.

 

[limit]

If you are an adult and realize that we're taliking about transportation not a "spa", fly whomever has the best schedule and price, and don't complain.

While we are at it, lets remove those sleeper cabins from the trains , after all us adults realize we are talking about transportation .......

 

[nbmcg01]

While we are at it, lets remove those sleeper cabins from the trains , after all us adults realize we are talking about transportation .......

Trains are a little different mode of transportation. A sleeper is comparable to a mini hotel room. An airplane is an airplane. F/C leg room and a comfortable seat that reclines is suffcient for MY needs. I don't need jammies and a turn down service to feel important. Would it have been so difficult for the company to have consulted with the APFA about the proposed changes? You know, shared sacrifice, participatory union/management. Appears it would have saved a whole lot of bad press.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Trains are a little different mode of transportation. A sleeper is comparable to a mini hotel room. An airplane is an airplane. F/C leg room and a comfortable seat that reclines is suffcient for MY needs. I don't need jammies and a turn down service to feel important. Would it have been so difficult for the company to have consulted with the APFA about the proposed changes? You know, shared sacrifice, participatory union/management. Appears it would have saved a whole lot of bad press.

Then company keep their word? Are you crazy? That's no way to show the low-life serfs and peons who's really boss.

They showed all of the workers - the FAs, Pilots, and Mechanics, didn't they?

 

[nbmcg01]

Then company keep their word? Are you crazy? That's no way to show the low-life serfs and peons who's really boss.

They showed all of the workers - the FAs, Pilots, and Mechanics, didn't they?

Frank, that was said tongue in cheek. However, I am a strong supporter of participatory management agreements that are negotiated contractually. Board participation and integration into the decision making process for concessions given. Unfortunately, none of the AA unions did that in 2003. It works and there is a stonger buy in for corporate decisions. And its a lot of fun too.

 

[Buck]

Frank, that was said tongue in cheek. However, I am a strong supporter of participatory management agreements that are negotiated contractually. Board participation and integration into the decision making process for concessions given. Unfortunately, none of the AA unions did that in 2003. It works and there is a stronger buy in for corporate decisions. And its a lot of fun too.

I am going to pick at this one part. I am probably digging to deep.

supporter of participatory management agreements

The problem with participatory management agreements, is that management at AA tends to modify the program as it matures and it becomes a one sided function in favor of management, tho the point that the participants grow tired and lose interest. ( at least in maintenance)

 

[737823]

Trains are a little different mode of transportation. A sleeper is comparable to a mini hotel room. An airplane is an airplane. F/C leg room and a comfortable seat that reclines is suffcient for MY needs. I don't need jammies and a turn down service to feel important. Would it have been so difficult for the company to have consulted with the APFA about the proposed changes? You know, shared sacrifice, participatory union/management. Appears it would have saved a whole lot of bad press.

You may not but some of us do use and enjoy those amenities. I've used this service on BA, CX, JL, and SQ and they also do it professionally and don't make me feel like I'm interrupting their coffee break and gossip time. It makes a big difference especially since many of the Flagship suites and Next Gen Business seats are getting up in age they are becoming rough. I'm of the opinion that if AA is going to bother offering a F product it needs to be competitive. Clearly it isn't now. AA no lounge server caviar, offers similar wine and liquor, same amenity kit as C and doesn't have a no true First class lounge offering etc. AA should make F competitive or eliminate it.

Josh

 

[Buck]

You may not but some of us do use and enjoy those amenities. I've used this service on BA, CX, JL, and SQ and they also do it professionally and don't make me feel like I'm interrupting their coffee break and gossip time. It makes a big difference especially since many of the Flagship suites and Next Gen Business seats are getting up in age they are becoming rough. I'm of the opinion that if AA is going to bother offering a F product it needs to be competitive. Clearly it isn't now. AA no lounge server caviar, offers similar wine and liquor, same amenity kit as C and doesn't have a no true First class lounge offering etc. AA should make F competitive or eliminate it.

Josh

You appear to be correct, you get what you pay for.......

 

[IORFA]

What, the Flagship Lounge isn't up to your standards?

 

[Buck]

What, the Flagship Lounge isn't up to your standards?

Did I say anything about the Flagship Lounge? I have only had the opportunity once to visit the DFW lounge and I thought it was great. I believe that you get what you pay for. If you agree to the fare price, which supports the membership, then you have the choice of the provided service. Even as a non-rev, I have had the pleasure of flying F/C and thought it to a great service and was always treated as if I had purchased the fare. I just stated my opinion, which is what the previous poster did also.

 

[737823]

What, the Flagship Lounge isn't up to your standards?

By US carrier standard the JFK and LAX Flagship lounges are among the very best. Compared to the offerings of other carriers (including many of AA's partners) not so much.

BA Concourse Room LHR: http://www.britishairways.com/travel/lounges-first/public/en_gb
CX Wing Lounge HKG: http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_HK/aboutus/pressroomdetails?refID=cd9c640739e1f210VgnVCM62000007d21c39____
http://www.oneworld.com/ow/airports-and-destinations/airports-and-maps/lounge-tour/cathay-pacific
JL Sakura Lounge NRT: http://www.oneworld.com/ow/airports-and-destinations/airports-and-maps/lounge-tour/jal

AA Lounges: http://www.oneworld.com/ow/airports-and-destinations/airports-and-maps/lounge-tour/american-airlines

The JFK and LAX Lounges are great-I often enjoy sitting in the Eames lounge chairs with a glass of wine watching the aircraft movements at JFK. The LAX club is also very nice and wide open and has similar views and nice seating options. ORD is not so nice. Very cramped, no view, no access to showers but wonderful helpful personnel. I've only been in to the ORD location twice this year and they remembered me. The food and beverages offerings are definietely lacking-AA is essentially serving reheated Costco frozen pizza , samosas and chicken skewers at ORD. JFK has better offerings in the evening with things like chicken breast and wild rice along with hot soup and salad.

However, the foreign carrier lounges offer made to order food. BA offers made to order English breakfast, sandwiches, wraps, Indian dishes, and special meals upon request (like on-board). Many carriers also have spa services and massages available in their lounges too. BA offers private cabanas with ensuite bath and chaise lounge daybed to relax.

So yes, some of AA's facilities are nice but if they want to offer a true competitive F major improvements will need to be made.

Josh

 

[eolesen]

AA's downfall began when some of those at APFA decided they were safety professionals, first, and that serving customers was an inconvenience.

Fortunately, not all flight attendants subscribe to that nonsense.

AA's flight attendants have long been considered robotic and indifferent. This doesn't do much to bolster that opinion...

Bob mentioned that WN doesn't have to do any of this to attract customers.

He's right.

But WN isn't competing with BA, SQ, JL, CX, AF, etc. They're competing with the indifference of AA, DL, and UACO.

And frankly, standing in line at the DMV can be an improvement over flying AA, DL, or UACO.

AA can't compete domestically, and you're openly mocked for the abysmal service internationally, so what else is left, guys?...