New Proposal is out for TWU

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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16% Paycut
Eliminate Longevity Pay
Eliminate Shift Differential
Medical and Dental Reductions
No Overtime Pay Unless 40 Hours worked
One week vacation unpaid
Reduced Vacation
6 Year Contract
Reduce to 5 Holidays
Plus many more...
I uploaded to a server for your reading:
http://www.air-mechanic.com/031103.pdf
Enough Said
VOTE NO!
Here comes the Judge to AA
 

1AA

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Aug 20, 2002
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I say let the BK judge decide, at least the judge's decision will last as long as we are in BK. If we accept this it will be six long years, worse off than BK. The big boys at headquarters do not want to go into BK. Then all their inside deals will be off limits until we come back out. Remember the 95 contract? Well this is worse. We will never be in BK for six plus years. What we lose in this recent proposal will be permanent. Is this what we really want? Remember that if we go to war with Iraq it will not last 6 years from DOS or whatever you want to call it.
When this crisis in the middle east is over you will see the industry pick up and recover. I doubt it will be 6 years to return to profitability or at least break even. Anyone who has been in this industry for the past 15 plus years has seen many cycles of profits and losses.
 

TWAnr

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Aug 19, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 3/11/2003 8:51:28 PM 1AA wrote:

I say let the BK judge decide, at least the judge's decision will last as long as we are in BK.
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[/blockquote]

WHAT???

The judge's decision and its effects will last much longer than the trip through the bankruptcy court. The contracts and the CBAs that are altered in the bankruptcy process DO NOT revert to the pre-bankruptcy status when the company emerges as a solvent one. Bankruptcy is about restructuring debt and contracts, not temporarily modifying them.
 

AirwAr

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Aug 21, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 3/11/2003 7:31:01 PM RV4 wrote:

...

Enough Said

VOTE NO!
Here comes the Judge to AA
----------------
[/blockquote]

This was simply a suggested proposal from the company because you guys disliked the "menu" form of the last proposal. Do you really see this as a yes or no vote? Cuts are coming, so you can choose a path that allows you to make decisions on what you want to cut or allow the judge and DIP decide it for you.

Out of curiosity, do you see anything in this proposal that is slightly more acceptable to you than any previous discussions? If you HAD to choose, what items are more important to you? Were the union employees able to fill out surveys to indicate what items were more important to them like management employees did, or does your union not allow that type direct input?

Even though I'm not in your union, I personally like the fact that the outsource language was removed. I’ll bet that a judge won’t feel the same way.

There is, however, at least one thing that I would complain about. The company made the statement, "The Company has pledged to provide opportunities to share in any future success", but has yet to indicate how. Understanding that the company can't give commit to specific raises at a specific time, it would be interesting to see how they will automatically include all employees in the future success, without having to go through contract negotiations.
 

WXGuesser

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Aug 20, 2002
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1AA:

What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

TWAnr's got it right. One way we get screwed for six years, one way we get screwed forever.

16% plus loss of some bennies beats the heck out of working somewhere else for 40% less (like I am now).

If they let furloughees vote, I'll vote yes.

Peace! TANSTAAFL!
 
Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/11/2003 7:31:01 PM RV4 wrote:

16% Paycut
Eliminate Longevity Pay
Eliminate Shift Differential
Medical and Dental Reductions
No Overtime Pay Unless 40 Hours worked
One week vacation unpaid
Reduced Vacation
6 Year Contract
Reduce to 5 Holidays


Plus many more...

I uploaded to a server for your reading:

http://www.air-mechanic.com/031103.pdf


Enough Said

VOTE NO!
Here comes the Judge to AA
----------------
[/blockquote]
Methinks that "this piece of crap", which is somewhat better than the "last peice of crap", will not be rejected by the TWU, and will be put to a membership vote.

Typical AA, Time will tell !!!!!!!!

NH/BB's
 
[blockquote]
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On 3/11/2003 9:51:16 PM TWAnr wrote:

The judge's decision and its effects will last much longer than the trip through the bankruptcy court. The contracts and the CBAs that are altered in the bankruptcy process DO NOT revert to the pre-bankruptcy status when the company emerges as a solvent one. Bankruptcy is about restructuring debt and contracts, not temporarily modifying them.
----------------
[/blockquote]

If you look at the history of the three airlines who survived Ch.11 (CO, HP, TW), none of them saw their contracts return to pre-bankruptcy levels.

Another interesting tidbit for those who think this will be a quick process... The median length of an airline bankruptcy (since 1980) is 589 days.

The three which resulted in liquidation (ML, PA, Tower) had a median of 311 days. Two which resulted in a S.363 sale (i.e. TW 2001 and Frontier 1986) averaged 523 days and counting (as far as I know, TWA's is still in progress).

The 11 which were successful (including both of CO's and Eastern) had a median of 826 days. That's 2 years and 3 months for the calendar challenged.

And yes, Eastern's reorganization -was- successful. They never flew airplanes again after 1991, but they're still a corporation, and still make filings with the SEC.


My wife (former ramp manager with Eagle at BNA) was reading the proposal earlier and commented that with the changes, the AA TWU contract looks more and more like the TWU contract at Eagle.
 
I think the TWU will do anything to avoid impacting the revenue stream provided by dues.

Outsource jobs, revenue stream decreases...Cut pay and benefits, revenue stream maintained.Hell, maybe they'll even raise the dues like the IAM did at US Airways.

How do I go to "Agency Fee" Status?


The company has stated they are flexible with meeting the target goal, I'd hope the union is as well.

Of course the TWU is busy planning an informational picket with the rest of the labor coalition for governmental relief on security costs.

Not in Washington DC mind you, at eight airports around the system.

How silly, why picket for governmental relief at the seat of power? Annoy the passengers at the airport...
 

rampguy

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Aug 21, 2002
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I find it remarkable anyone at this point say to vote no. Vote no on what? A proposal with a menu is out there but there isn't any kind of agreement to bring to a vote. How do you vote no before you see the final package? I'm like anyone else in that I'd love to keep what I got but that isn't gonna happen. Let a judge decide what we keep and what to give? I don't think so. A BK judge is to do what is best for the creditors and our current contract ain't in their interest. Those of you that b***h and complain about management seemed fairly happy when cashing those profit sharing checks but let things turn sour and it's throw the bums out. Nobody b****ed when they got hired about how things were run but let them get probation over with and all of a sudden you'd think this like working in a concentration camp. Don't get me wrong, everyone should have a voice and some bring out legitimate questions but others aren't happy unless they can stir the pot of ill will and discontent.
Come on people. Stop letting your emotions overide your common sense.
 
Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/12/2003 1:48:59 AM LGA Fleet Service wrote:

I think the TWU will do anything to avoid impacting the revenue stream provided by dues.

Outsource jobs, revenue stream decreases...Cut pay and benefits, revenue stream maintained.Hell, maybe they'll even raise the dues like the IAM did at US Airways.

How do I go to "Agency Fee" Status?


The company has stated they are flexible with meeting the target goal, I'd hope the union is as well.

Of course the TWU is busy planning an informational picket with the rest of the labor coalition for governmental relief on security costs.

Not in Washington DC mind you, at eight airports around the system.

How silly, why picket for governmental relief at the seat of power? Annoy the passengers at the airport...
----------------
[/blockquote]
Lga(JFK);
Like I said, I don't think "this latest piece of SH*T", will be rejected by the TWU, AND I predict that(most likely) it will be put up for a full membership vote.

NH/BB's
 
OP
R

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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You VOTE NO because the company is NOT calculating in the savings of future layoffs into the equation. And is also not taking into account the potential liquidation of other airlines that will change the supply vs. demand problem considerably.

You want to take over 25% in pay and benefit cuts for 6 six years without a fight go ahead, I'm not!
 
Aug 20, 2002
10,015
675
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/12/2003 10:07:32 AM RV4 wrote:

You VOTE NO because the company is NOT calculating in the savings of future layoffs into the equation. And is also not taking into account the potential liquidation of other airlines that will change the supply vs. demand problem considerably.

You want to take over 25% in pay and benefit cuts for 6 six years without a fight go ahead, I'm not!


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[/blockquote]
RV4(brother Dave),
I'll be voting NO with you,
BUT,
I've got news for you, my man.
Unless you QUIT, YOU and I(and everyone else) will be "taking it in the SHORTS", because,
1. YOU don't have AMFA
2. I don't think the (weak sister) TWU will reject "this piece of crap", like they rejected the "last piece of crap"
AND,
3. I think that (most likely) the twu WILL put this out to a full vote.
AND
4. When the voting results are in, "AS USUAL" the highest percentages of YES votes will come from the "GOOD OL' BOY" area states, namely TEX-ASS, and OKIE-HOMA!!

Now Dave, I know that you WON't believe me when I say that I'm not trying to ruffle you feathers(I swear it, with my hand on the "GOOD BOOK").
I'm just (sadly) calling it as I I see it.

NH/BB's
 

rampguy

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Aug 21, 2002
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NHBB; I may live in Oklahoma but I am far from an Okie. I can't ride a horse and I'm not a "Good ole Boy". Don't equate intelligence with geography.
Dave; It isn't a matter of me being willing to take a 25% cut in bennies for six years without a fight. That hasn't been determined yet therefore, nothing to vote on. However, if that is what it takes then I will. And believe me, I ain't no lemming.
 
B

bagsmasher

Guest
rampguy,

I am voting "NO" no matter what. You know why. And I know why you are voting "YES". You are former TWA, and even after the concessions, you will still be getting a raise from your former TWA wages.

This $1.8 billion in concessions is Carty's way of making his employees pay for his HUGE mistake of buying TWA.
 

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