New Shuttle Competition

[A330US]

i went from CLT-LGA, i was going overseas to pakistan, i went down to JFK, and took a Emirates airlines flight JFK-DXB, 14 hour non stop flight on a brand new Airbus A340-500
well, had fun and all, when i was coming back, The 737-300 was WAY MORE COMFORTABLE THAN THE A340-500 !!!, when i got on the plane, i went to sleep right away lol,

737s are very comfortable,
the seat was wider, had more leg room and yet a old aircraft, but way more comfortable

737s rule !

 

[BoeingBoy]

Cost however is not subjective.

[post="311313"][/post]​

Absolutely right, but it does depend on whether you're talking about cost per segment/hour/etc or unit cost/CASM.

If segment or hourly cost, then the smaller the plane the less expensive. On the other hand, larger is cheaper when talking about unit costs.

The 170 crews are paid dirt wages, all the 170 specific labor is at a level that makes employees eligable for government assistance.

[post="311313"][/post]​

Unfortunately, labor is but one of the cost items and not the whole story. When spread over the number of seat miles produced per segment, hour, etc, the labor cost difference is a fraction of a cent. Meanwhile, some of the other costs are as high or higher than a bigger plane but spread over less seat miles produced per segment, hour, etc. - meaning they're higher per seat mile produced.

Fuel burn is half of a 737 in cruise usually less than 4000LBS per hour total.

[post="311313"][/post]​

Well, not half or less. In cruise the 737 will burn 5000-5500 lbs/hr while producing from 60% to 100% more seat miles per segment, hour, etc.

What it boils down to is that the 170 is less expensive than the 737/320 series per hour but more expensive per seat mile. And that's with the advantage of them being new, so very little is spent on maintenance relative to the 737/320 series.

Not to mention the 170 is hardly an RJ. But keep telling yourself it is, as this makes it easier for management to outsource more.

[post="311313"][/post]​

Now there we agree.

Jim

 

[airportman]

There is no way a 170 is more expensive to operate than a 737! That much more fuel, plus topped out mainline pay? No way. Are you talking about RJs or E170s?

And I've never once seen an E170 weight restricted. Ever. Are you sure you're not thinking of the Embraer RJs? The 145s? They are constantly weight restricted... but the 170?

Not have I ever heard anyone think it's uncomfortable, normally people enjoy more legroom and a seat over an inch wider than the rest of the fleet. The 737 has a pitch of 31 inches compared to the 170's 32-33. As for seat width, the 737 has a width of 16 inches and the 170 has 18.1. I think most would find the 170 more comfortable. But maybe some people don't like having a bigger seat, who knows.

First Class is only full because the flight itself is full. Even pompous folks don't purchase first class seats on a Shuttle flight. Upgrade, yes, but not purchase.

DCA has the Shuttle at gates 41 and 43. These gates are used for mainline and MA flights as well. There's a magazine rack that rarely has magazines in it, but I don't think anyone considers it a Shuttle lounge.

[post="311321"][/post]​

[/quote

THE MDA 170 HAS A HIGHER COST THAN THE 737 MAINLINE IT IS IN A COMPANT REPORT........ILL FIND IT AND POST IT.

NOT WT RESTICTED........WELL I CAN PERSONALLY ATTEST TO THIS BEEN BUMPED OFF FOR IT ON A MUST RIDE...YEP MUST RIDE BUT THATS ANOTHER STORY.

THERE ARE A FEW COMPUTER PORTS THERE AS WELL AND PERIODICALS IN THE AM BEFORE ALL THE PEOPLE GRAB EM.

 

[700UW]

One thing US should have done was keep the F100s
and use them on the shuttle routes, i think they would have been a ideal aircraft, also
US should repaint the "SHUTTLE" back on the planes, they look distinctly only for shuttle, which i think is cool

i think i rode on shuttle i while back
i really dont remember

but i think A319s are ok, but for such short routes, any E170/75/90/95 is good enough for the route, especially less fuel consumption

[post="311314"][/post]​

The F100 is a piece of crap, that is why they are gone, they were too hot in the summer and not very comfortable.

 

[fr8tmastr]

I have seen fuel burns in the 3000 range, but that is best case, the less than 4000 per hour was an average at a variety of altitudes

And since we are nit picking, the seat cost of the larger are definetly better than the smaller if the seats are full. If you have 72 pax in both AC the 170 wins.
Now if there are more than 72 by all means please put the larger AC on the route. When I was claiming the cost advantage of the 170 over a 73 I was assuming it was the right AC for the job, and not leaving pax at the gate. But with this company that may be a foolish assumption. New management new hope

 

[Light Years]

[post="311321"][/post]​

[/quote

THE MDA 170 HAS A HIGHER COST THAN THE 737 MAINLINE IT IS IN A COMPANT REPORT........ILL FIND IT AND POST IT.

NOT WT RESTICTED........WELL I CAN PERSONALLY ATTEST TO THIS BEEN BUMPED OFF FOR IT ON A MUST RIDE...YEP MUST RIDE BUT THATS ANOTHER STORY.

[post="311334"][/post]​

And you were bumped because of a weight restriction or for oversales? I've never seen the 170 unable to take 72 passengers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And since we are nit picking, the seat cost of the larger are definetly better than the smaller if the seats are full. If you have 72 pax in both AC the 170 wins.
Now if there are more than 72 by all means please put the larger AC on the route. When I was claiming the cost advantage of the 170 over a 73 I was assuming it was the right AC for the job, and not leaving pax at the gate. But with this company that may be a foolish assumption. New management new hope

[post="311337"][/post]​

Again, something I absolutely agree with.

On the one hand, the ideal would be the right size aircraft on every route every day. However, there's a crossover point between having the right sized aircraft and creating unnecessary expense by having too many fleet types or making up for lack of bigger planes with high frequency with smaller planes.

On the other hand, WN does a pretty good job of being profitable with "one size fits all", although they don't serve the smallest markets (and neither do some of our RJ's).

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

If my memory serves me correctly the Shuttle now operates with 11 aircraft.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Light Years]

Imagine how many new routes could be opened up with 11 Airbuses.

 

[vsi0]

NOT WT RESTICTED........WELL I CAN PERSONALLY ATTEST TO THIS BEEN BUMPED OFF FOR IT ON A MUST RIDE...YEP MUST RIDE BUT THATS ANOTHER STORY.


Being bumped for a Must Ride is not a WT restriction.

Joined the 170 Division in Mar04 and have never had a WT restricition.

Delta Shuttle driver rode with me once and just raved about what a great idea the plane would be if it seved the shuttle market - no middle seats.

Still have not figuered all that is done by our F/A during boarding but I can't imagine they or some non-rev is screwing up the FC boarding. On shuttle flts FC is a waste.

The 170 product is marketed all wrong at AAA and even worst at UAL. I suspect that JB will do a much better job with their equipment. And thats discounting the fact that they will have Direct TV.

ALL OR NONE

 

[ClueByFour]

The Airbus in the shuttle config was far more comfortable than the -170, with the additional ability to put a real rollaboard in the overhead wheels first.

The current shuttle config has a first class.

Going to an all coach config on the -190 means no FC, and limited overhead utility. How is that a win for the markets in question?

Reducing capacity is not going to afford higher fares on these routes now that Acela is back online. My last two NYC-WAS trips were comfortably seated in an Acela car, getting from Midtown Manhatten to Georgetown in a door to door time that US can't match (and wanted $120 more for the R/T).

 

[Light Years]

The Shuttle configured Airbuses were better legroom wise, but still had the narrow seats and middle seats. I'm not sure what the attraction of placing a bag wheels-first in an overhead is, but ask any 170 F/A (they've all worked Airbuses, Boeings, McDonnell Douglases and Fokkers as well as the Embraer) and they'll tell you overhead space is not too big of a problem. The first row is tricky as they board last and can be left without space as on any aircraft, but pretty much any rollaboard will go in those bins. The 170 is also the only aircraft that a rollaboard can go under the seat and still leave legal and comfortable foot space, because there is no bar and the seats sit high. The overheads fit two rollaboards for two seats. The bigger narrowbodies were much more of a drama to board since you have three people fighting over the same overhead and pretty much no underseat stowage. The skinny aisles on the "mainline" narrowbodies are also skinnier which hold up boarding more.

Again, most frequent Shuttle flyers were disapointed about the "addition" of first class. It just makes the flight less comfortable for the other 100-something passengers- the majority.

I'm not sure how well Shuttle capacity and loads are matched. Delta is going to MD80s and RJs. Of course you can't compare the 1100 departure with the 1800, but since they are using 50 seaters and 100+ seaters, I just assumed that means the EMB family of 72-116 seats would be ideal over the Airbus family of 120-150. That, the comfort issue, and the underutilization of long haul capable Airbuses are what led me to think they are well suited for this market.

But hey, maybe flying E170s DCA-IAH and DCA-DFW and A319s LGA-BOS does somehow make sense. Who knows!

Acela indeed offers a good product at a lower price. With security these days, even with Shuttle only security lines, makes the trip take about the same amount of time. It will be interesting to see what the new US does in this market. Hopefully not nothing at all like the past couple of years.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

It amazes me how folks can have such clear and contradictory 'seat' tastes. For example, I've never been on a train seat that I have liked better than a plane seat. They tend to have no lower back support.. well, none of the ones Ive been in have. Amtrak's pictures of their Acela seats don't look like they do either. Yes, I sit at a computer all day, but I try to maintain some form of human posture.

 

[Travelpro72]

I sat in the business car on Amtrak and had more room at my seat than an Envoy seat. The recline was amazing. Plugs at every seat. The conductor even went up to a woman with a well behaved child and let her know in advance that this was a quiet car and if the child made noice they would have to move to another car. He was very nice while firmly letting her know that no snot nosed behavior would be allowed. OH and no middle seat. Someone had mentioned earlier that the 737 is comfy.....HUH, you gotta be kidding. It sure wasnt when you were flying to the west coast. Definately not comfy while sitting on the tarmac in PHL for 2 hours before your flight either. LOL

 

[LGA / 037]

First Class. Dumb idea. Shuttle has traditionally been an upgraded product for the whole cabin, they were doing the JetBlue type of product years ago. No one needs FC for a 40 minute flight. Plus it makes boarding more drama in both the gate area and in the cabin.

Actually , although never promoted, First Class sells quite well on the Shuttle , especially with VIPS and Dignitaries. There are quite a few Full Fare F8 seats sold in the course of a business day.


I'm not sure whether or not US still has the sedan service. I think they do, but I'm not sure if it's in all three cities. LGA and BOS have Shuttle gate/lounge areas, DCA does not.

Elite Car Service is still here. Up to $ 40.00 a ride.

The apple in a cup was pretty stupid, alot of crews skipped it. But the lunch bag, "US Airways Shuttle News" (is that what it was called?), the headsets and news broadcasts, and La Petit snacks were nifty. These are the types of things the new US should be looking at for the mainline- a low-cost, but classy business product. Like I said, I think that's where JetBlue got alot of thier ideas.

[post="311299"][/post]​

Talking with and interacting with the daily business man/woman. the typical MON to FRI customer just wants their Orange juice and coffee, along with a newspaper to start their day, and a beer, wine, or mineral water to help them unwind after a long day.