Next Conspiracy - AA and Eagle to Merge

[AirwAr]

http://www.twuatd.org/aarestructure/aatwuc...0RULES

I noticed on this website that "All TWU covered groups remove Pilot cap “me tooâ€￾ provision". Is this true for the APFA as well? If they removed the "me too" clause as well, does the APA see any reason for trying to move the CRJs to AA''s certificate? Assuming that the APA will represent the pilots in these aircraft, I would think the APA would be able to negotiate slightly better pay rates for these pilots if the aircraft remained at Eagle versus forcing the company to move them to AA. Another benefit is that AMR may be more inclined to purchase even more CRJs if they were going to the Eagle operation.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/10/2003 313 PM AirwAr wrote:

http://www.twuatd.org/aarestructure/aatwuc...tm#WORK%20RULES

I noticed on this website that "All TWU covered groups remove Pilot cap “me tooâ€￾ provision". Is this true for the APFA as well? If they removed the "me too" clause as well, does the APA see any reason for trying to move the CRJs to AA's certificate? Assuming that the APA will represent the pilots in these aircraft, I would think the APA would be able to negotiate slightly better pay rates for these pilots if the aircraft remained at Eagle versus forcing the company to move them to AA. Another benefit is that AMR may be more inclined to purchase even more CRJs if they were going to the Eagle operation.


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I believe that "me too" clause was related to health benefits, not aircraft.



Benefits
[SIZE= 8pt]q [/SIZE]All TWU covered groups remove Pilot cap “me tooâ€￾ provision; new contribution rates to be effective 1/1/04; Post ratification TWU/APA and APFA to meet with Company to discuss new plan for 1/1/04;

[SIZE= 8pt]q [/SIZE]SLOA Benefit coverage reduced from 24 to 12 months

[SIZE= 8pt]q [/SIZE]Elimination of STD plan

[SIZE= 8pt]q [/SIZE]No change to Retiree Medical or prefunding
It pains me to see folks so confused about the issues we face!

NOTE:

Health Benefit Paycheck Deduction increases, have nothing to do with RJ Flying and Scope.

This is, however valid proof that the TWU cannot negotiate for the membership, and instead must rely on the Pilot group to take care of that function of unionism. The TWU can sure as hell make some political yard signs, fight cock-fighting in Oklahoma, and fund a lawsuit to overturn the Right-to-Work law pass by the citizenship though!

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/10/2003 2:33:40 PM Buck wrote:

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On 5/10/2003 1:22:44 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/10/2003 1026 AM RV4 wrote:


Believe me, I now understand why Eagle was not included in the shared sacrifice, they are going to contribute soon.


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If we merged either Eagle mechanics would go to your pay and benefits or you would go to ours. If the former is true, it would be a huge step up for us, even post concessions. If the latter is true, you and Buck will get to see what a TRUE "sacrifice" is.

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It appears that you are an advocate for the latter? Why not take a stand as an A&P Mechanic and your profession and use your skill to advance yourself. RV4 and I have been sacrificing since we hired on. But hey we knew what the job was when we hired in.

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I am absolutely not an advocate of the latter. Unlike you, I don/t want to see anyone''s pay cut any further than it already is. It is an ethical issue for me, one that you don/t appear to be burdened with.

Take a stand and advance myself? Care to elaborate on that?

I am sure you have been sacrificing for years. Making 30 something an hour in an air conditioned welding shop in Tulsa surely must be a hellish experience.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/10/2003 2:28:47 PM Buck wrote:


"It is up to the mechanics to make use of their union to better themselves. After all they are the union. If they are not happy, they need to change their outlook and or their representation."


Oddly enough, it is not the TWU or the company proposing the pay cuts at Eagle. They are pushing for the pay freeze. It is Buck and AMFA Dave, the two AMFA mouthpieces that are actually pushing for a pay cut for the Eagle mechanics.


"So you are whining to the wrong person. Whine to your union representitive or the company itself.
"


Again, who started the whining? You did. Your post was first brainiac.

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[Bob Owens]

The AA-Eagle merge was a movement by the pilots.

The TWU picked it up a few months back when they handed out the pins from the APA.

Little, Yingst, and Gless tried selling it to our board in January. We used the pins as cores for our "VOTE NO" pins.

I see no advantage.

Maybe Little hopes he can sell us on the industry leading 15 year contract like he did at Eagle.

I agree with "Will Work for Food". Those guys are paid crap.

 

[Buck]

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On 5/10/2003 7:52:22 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/10/2003 2:33:40 PM Buck wrote:

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On 5/10/2003 1:22:44 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/10/2003 1026 AM RV4 wrote:


Believe me, I now understand why Eagle was not included in the shared sacrifice, they are going to contribute soon.



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If we merged either Eagle mechanics would go to your pay and benefits or you would go to ours. If the former is true, it would be a huge step up for us, even post concessions. If the latter is true, you and Buck will get to see what a TRUE "sacrifice" is.

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It appears that you are an advocate for the latter? Why not take a stand as an A&P Mechanic and your profession and use your skill to advance yourself. RV4 and I have been sacrificing since we hired on. But hey we knew what the job was when we hired in.

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I am absolutely not an advocate of the latter. Unlike you, I don/t want to see anyone''s pay cut any further than it already is. It is an ethical issue for me, one that you don/t appear to be burdened with.

Take a stand and advance myself? Care to elaborate on that?

I am sure you have been sacrificing for years. Making 30 something an hour in an air conditioned welding shop in Tulsa surely must be a hellish experience.

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1 entry found for brainiac.







A highly intelligent person: “These companies are not hot Silicon Valley startups swarming with Gen-X brainiacsâ€￾ (Ronald Henkoff).

I do not want to see anyones pay cut. I do not accept the paycut that you apparently advocated in the T/A to keep people employeed. It is the TWU and Randy McDonald of Local 514 that has instituted a National Right To Work program for A&P mechanics in the airline industry. Don''t Lower Wages? That is exactly what the TWU has done. Ethics? The TWU now thats a good one. Members of the TWU who vote Republican and pay dues to support anti-Republican causes, and don''t even realize what they are doing. I surely hope that you only vote the liberal left wing political manifesto, because if you vote for any Republican issue while your dues are financing the left then you are being hypocritical.

My only burden is that I have to support those outside my craft and class. I happen to believe in my profession and that it can stand on it''s own. Unions are not JOBS programs for the Democratic Party to thrive on, they are for improving the working conditions and protecting wages and benefits of it''s membership.

Yes take a stand for your profession. Believe that your skill is important and that you have earned that right to use it. Support your craft and class and do not worry about those outside of it. They can help themselves.

I was making $36.01 an hour until the TWU negotiated my pay reduction. Now it is $30.00. Out of 19 years with AA, I have yet to work in a fully air conditioned enviroment. I have 12 years in the JT-8 engine shops, which were not fully airconditioned for many years. I have been in the Hangar for 7 years and it is HOT and normally warm in the winter, but my job takes me to the ramp also. I am not a welder. It appars that you believe that welding is not important? I believe that it is a skilled trade and is very important to me as an A&P mechanic in this industry. I would rather have a whiny welder than the Fleet Service Clerks in my union. Actually TULSA is quite nice, there are a few Tornados etc.. but overall the weather is moderate compared to the rest of the country.

 

[xlurker]

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On 5/10/2003 10:44:18 AM Winglet wrote:

I''d like to know how they are going to compete with LCCs with RJs when the CASM is way higher.

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What exactly is the RJ CASM? The AA jet is not way higher. Only slightly higher.

I am telling you that is the direction the company is going. You can believe it or not. I don''t care.

Time will tell.

 

[Winglet]

The number I saw for 4th quarter was about .18 CASM for Eagle and .11 for AA.

Of course, JetBlue and SW were about .07

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/10/2003 10:34:21 PM Buck wrote:


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1 entry found for brainiac.







A highly intelligent person: “These companies are not hot Silicon Valley startups swarming with Gen-X brainiacsâ€￾ (Ronald Henkoff).



Very good. Next look up "sarcasm".




"I do not want to see anyones pay cut."



Yea right. What is all this constant harping about Eagle not participating in "Shared Sacrifices" about then? While you have your dictionary out look up "hypocracy".



"I do not accept the paycut that you apparently advocated in the T/A to keep people employeed."



I assure you I did not advocate anything, either way, that wasn/t my business so I knew enough to keep my nose out of it.



" It is the TWU and Randy McDonald of Local 514 that has instituted a National Right To Work program for A&P mechanics in the airline industry. Don't Lower Wages? That is exactly what the TWU has done. Ethics? The TWU now thats a good one."




I was talking about my personal code of ethics. Not anyone else's. I thought that was painfully clear.



"Members of the TWU who vote Republican and pay dues to support anti-Republican causes, and don't even realize what they are doing. I surely hope that you only vote the liberal left wing political manifesto, because if you vote for any Republican issue while your dues are financing the left then you are being hypocritical."




Actually, I vote on the issues and not along straight party lines. Radical huh?




"My only burden is that I have to support those outside my craft and class. I happen to believe in my profession and that it can stand on it's own. Unions are not JOBS programs for the Democratic Party to thrive on, they are for improving the working conditions and protecting wages and benefits of it's membership."


"Yes take a stand for your profession. Believe that your skill is important and that you have earned that right to use it. Support your craft and class and do not worry about those outside of it. They can help themselves."



You don/t see me arguing to advance the American Eagle rampers cause do you? I am sure they have plenty of people more qualified and more willing to do that for them. I just concern myself with the mechanics end of it.



"I was making $36.01 an hour until the TWU negotiated my pay reduction. Now it is $30.00."



So does that make your pay raise about 13% post concessions? Sounds alot better than the 0% we are looking at, but not nearly as bad as the 17.5% cut from our 1998 wage rate that you keep alluding to wanting to see.



"Out of 19 years with AA, I have yet to work in a fully air conditioned enviroment. I have 12 years in the JT-8 engine shops, which were not fully airconditioned for many years. I have been in the Hangar for 7 years and it is HOT and normally warm in the winter, but my job takes me to the ramp also."



I stand corrected. Your shop was only partially air conditioned.



"I am not a welder. It appars that you believe that welding is not important? I believe that it is a skilled trade and is very important to me as an A&P mechanic in this industry."



Yea, welding is great. I/ve seen robots do some fantastic welds.



"I would rather have a whiny welder than the Fleet Service Clerks in my union. Actually TULSA is quite nice, there are a few Tornados etc.. but overall the weather is moderate compared to the rest of the country."


Whiny? As long as you still have your dictionary out, look up "understatement".


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[Buck]

Why are you so angry?

 

[Buck]

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On 5/11/2003 251 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/11/2003 12:05:52 PM Buck wrote:

Why are you so angry?

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You have to be joking.

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Yea right. What is all this constant harping about Eagle not participating in "Shared Sacrifices" about then? While you have your dictionary out look up "hypocracy".

I believe that the original question had to do with Eagle being part of AMR corp.?



I assure you I did not advocate anything, either way, that wasn/t my business so I knew enough to keep my nose out of it.

What do you mean none of your business, do you not work for AMR Corp??


So does that make your pay raise about 13% post concessions? Sounds alot better than the 0% we are looking at, but not nearly as bad as the 17.5% cut from our 1998 wage rate that you keep alluding to wanting to see.

Actually I received a 22% increase at the time of signing due to the stand taken by the mechanics at NWA. I then had 17.5% of my wages cut thanks to the TWU. If you are unhappy with your current bargaining agent, then you and your fellow mechanics and related need to take a stand for your profession and start your own union or replace the existing one. Again to the orginal topic of Shared Sacrifice. If Eagle is part of AMR, then everyone should share in the sacrifice. How that is divided up is another topic. The membership of each union can only blame itself for any concessions it votes for. That and Jim Little from the ATD when he and his cronies violate the TWU Constitution.


I stand corrected. Your shop was only partially air conditioned.

Partially yes, meaning the doors open and fans on until late into the 90''s West brick wall but not in the sun. Yes it was hot. I did not say it rained inside the building, that only happened when the roof leaked when it was raining outside.


Yea, welding is great. I/ve seen robots do some fantastic welds

So you are advocating that all human welders be thrown out of this industry? Nice touch there, making friends must be easy for you. Are you indicating that Robot welders can weld all areas of aircraft and their parts? Who is going to run these robot welders?

 

[will fix for food]

Yes, Eagle is part of AMR. I can/t speak for the rest of the work groups but as for the mechanics, our part of the shared sacrifice is a suspension of negotiations and a raise of 0%. By your own estimation you received a raise of 4.5%. Who made out better there? Who is sacrificing more? You just can/t seem to get past the fact that Eagle wasn/t specifically named in the "Shared Sacrifices" program, but rest assured we are doing our part and then some. If it was truly equal we would either also get a small raise or you would go back to $26/hour. Now that would be a truly "Shared Sacrifice".

I meant it was none of my business because it was not my CBA being modified.

The day might happen when we change union representation. But oddly enough it isn/t the incumbent union that is making a case for our pay to be rolled back. It is AMFA Buck. Forgive me if I don/t get all warm and fuzzy inside for AMFA while one of their biggest proponents calls for me to go below $20/hour.

I fully realize that welders are a necessary part of the system.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/11/2003 12:05:52 PM Buck wrote:

Why are you so angry?

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You have to be joking.

 

[Buck]

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On 5/11/2003 2:56:20 PM will fix for food wrote:

Yes, Eagle is part of AMR. I can/t speak for the rest of the work groups but as for the mechanics, our part of the shared sacrifice is a suspension of negotiations and a raise of 0%. By your own estimation you received a raise of 4.5%. Who made out better there? Who is sacrificing more? You just can/t seem to get past the fact that Eagle wasn/t specifically named in the "Shared Sacrifices" program, but rest assured we are doing our part and then some. If it was truly equal we would either also get a small raise or you would go back to $26/hour. Now that would be a truly "Shared Sacrifice".

I meant it was none of my business because it was not my CBA being modified.

The day might happen when we change union representation. But oddly enough it isn/t the incumbent union that is making a case for our pay to be rolled back. It is AMFA Buck. Forgive me if I don/t get all warm and fuzzy inside for AMFA while one of their biggest proponents calls for me to go below $20/hour.

I fully realize that welders are a necessary part of the system.

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Ok I am listening. How is AMFA making a case to have your pay rolled back? Who wants you to go back below $20 an hour?

If you are a mechanic at Eagle my position is and will always be for you as an A&P mechanic to be my equal. It does not matter if we are employeed by an airline, FBO or whatever. When I support the AMFA, it is from the constitution and the belief that aircraft mechanics are skilled labor that deserve to be compensated for the responsibility they take on a daily basis. AMFA is not Buck or RV4, it is the membership. It is not the union leadership that has become corrupt under the flag of the AFL-CIO. Hopefully it will be the likes of mechanics like Bob Owens who understand the important legislation for us as aircraft mechanics. The division created by the industrial unionism has seen it''s day. It is time for the mechanic and related to step forward and be shown the respect they earn.

If Eagle and AA merge, what will happen to the seniority? What is fair and equitable?

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/11/2003 6:37:38 PM Buck wrote:

"Ok I am listening. How is AMFA making a case to have your pay rolled back?"


AMFA,the organization, meaning the officers in Laconia, are not.


"Who wants you to go back below $20 an hour?"


Well, apparently you do. Remember the whole "Why isn/t Eagle participating in the Shared Sacrifices. We took a 17.5% cut, what about them"? A 17.5% cut to us would bring a topped out Eagle mechanic to just above $19.20.

"If you are a mechanic at Eagle my position is and will always be for you as an A&P mechanic to be my equal. It does not matter if we are employeed by an airline, FBO or whatever. When I support the AMFA, it is from the constitution and the belief that aircraft mechanics are skilled labor that deserve to be compensated for the responsibility they take on a daily basis. AMFA is not Buck or RV4, it is the membership."


I am assuming you are an associate member. So as an AMFA member, how does your philosophy of " I took a pay cut so that Eagle guy damn well better take one also" mesh with what I thought AMFA''s philosophy was, which was for the advancement of mechanics?


"It is not the union leadership that has become corrupt under the flag of the AFL-CIO. Hopefully it will be the likes of mechanics like Bob Owens who understand the important legislation for us as aircraft mechanics. The division created by the industrial unionism has seen it''s day. It is time for the mechanic and related to step forward and be shown the respect they earn."


"If Eagle and AA merge, what will happen to the seniority? What is fair and equitable?"


I just hope that day doesn/t happen. Except for riding some coattails to a higher wage and benefit package, there is no upside for an Eagle mechanic. I would much rather we fight and win it for ourselves. Of course to win it for ourselves, we have to fight a hostile company, an apathetic union, and now you and your cronies.

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