NK got another one

[dapoes]

It's called an analogy.

Umm yeah I get that already, you think that an event like a tragic life altering/shattering event like murder, rape, mayhem, horrific accident, potential loss of your life or a loved one is analogous to the frustration of not being able to connect to the internet. :blink:

You cherry picked the tidbit that fit your agenda and ran with it. Pretty much par for the course.

Au contraire, it twas you who choose the ludicrous analogy. Own up to it.

You quoted the question now answer it. While your at it, why not post some thing that the supports your assertion that there are no atheists in fox holes. I already gave 6 examples that contradict that assertion.

No you gave ridiculous analogy of not connecting to the internet should be a divine intervention. Try Geek Squad next time.

 

[Garfield1966]

No, that is not what I said. It is what you needed me to say in order for your argument to work. What I said was that at a time of desperation/frustration a person is more inclined to do something that they would not normally do. They might do it because they hope that the act while defying logic, will in this one instance actually defy logic and work even though they know it will not.

I also gave the examples of my being held up at gun point and my family being in concentration camps. You chose to ignore those.

The question I asked which you are sweeping under the rug because you have no answer is this. Are the people who have turned their back on religion during a time a crisis as much of hypocrite as you seem to claim that those atheists who turn to religion during a time of crisis? Are the religious ones any less religious?

Again, try addressing the issues rather than the fact that the argument may not be presented in a manner that you agree with.

As I said earlier. When I was held up at gun point and felt that I might die, I had no urge to turn to religion for help. I have as of yet, never been in a situation where I felt that need so I have no better personal example. My parents, when they were in the concentration camps where they were in fear for their life 24/7/365 for over five years were never inclined to ask a god for help. So again, sorry but they do not have an experience which I can draw on either. I have had to put 5 of my animals down over the last several years because their time had come. I am very close to my animals but alas, I did not feel compelled to eek solaces in religion.

You seem to have claimed that there are not atheists in foxholes. I have proved to you that there are. I know of others who were in life threatening events and also do not believe. While I have no doubt that we are in the minority, we do exist.

 

[Garfield1966]

IMHO I think the guys heart is in the right place. However I also think he is incredbily naive.

I agree but I think you are being a bit to generous. I think his heart was in the right place but to say his is naive is the understatement of the year. Should intervention not help him, he unfortunately will live to regret his actions.

 

[dapoes]

No, that is not what I said. It is what you needed me to say in order for your argument to work.

I made you say that? Really? :blink:

I also gave the examples of my being held up at gun point and my family being in concentration camps. You chose to ignore those.

Well its not what I would classify as a personal life shattering/alerting event. Maybe if the trigger was pulled and you were clinging to life or facing a high risk/low survival, you would probably find those around you seeking divine intervention. Or wait, you would rather they call Geek Squad?

The question I asked which you are sweeping under the rug because you have no answer is this. Are the people who have turned their back on religion during a time a crisis as much of hypocrite as you seem to claim that those atheists who turn to religion during a time of crisis? Are the religious ones any less religious?

Again, try addressing the issues rather than the fact that the argument may not be presented in a manner that you agree with.

Your presumption is analogous to that broken internet problem. Makes no sense,

As I said earlier. When I was held up at gun point and felt that I might die, I had no urge to turn to religion for help. I have as of yet, never been in a situation where I felt that need so I have no better personal example.

See above.

My parents, when they were in the concentration camps where they were in fear for their life 24/7/365 for over five years were never inclined to ask a god for help. So again, sorry but they do not have an experience which I can draw on either. I have had to put 5 of my animals down over the last several years because their time had come. I am very close to my animals but alas, I did not feel compelled to eek solaces in religion.

Maybe you should have called Geek Squad for divine intervention?

You seem to have claimed that there are not atheists in foxholes. I have proved to you that there are. I know of others who were in life threatening events and also do not believe. While I have no doubt that we are in the minority, we do exist.

And hence the reason why Geek Squad is so successful?

 

[Garfield1966]

Well its not what I would classify as a personal life shattering/alerting event. Maybe if the trigger was pulled and you were clinging to life or facing a high risk/low survival, you would probably find those around you seeking divine intervention. Or wait, you would rather they call Geek Squad?

Given my lack of faith in any gods calling the Geek Squad would yield the same results as praying to a non-existent god. As far as I am concerned they can take their pick. Actually, I take that back. I'd rather they call the Geek Squad. At least they are real.

My mother died of amyloidosis. It robbed her of who she was. My whole family watcher her die. It was the worst time of my life seeing my mother wither away. Not once did I or anyone else in my family seek comfort from any god. We sought to make her as comfortable as possible and were happy that she had a good life until that point.

As far as being held up at gun point not being a lifer altering moment. Not sure if you have ever been held up at gun point, but for me it was quite a life altering event. Let me know when it happens to you and we can compare notes.

So would being in a Nazi concentration camp be classified as a life shattering/altering event? My dad was sent away from his parents in May of 1939 when he was 14 years old and was liberated by the Russians in 1945. My father was 5'7" and 89 pounds. I am pretty damn sure that qualifies as a lifer altering event. He did not and nor does he believe in god. According to him, he did not ask for gods intervention to save him because if he had, he would have had to blame god for putting him in that hell to begin with and he felt that would have been a wasted circular argument and he had more important things to do. Like figuring out how to survive to the next day.

Try and put your fixation with the internet issue aside for a moment. Are the people who have turned their back on religion during a time a crisis as much of hypocrite as you seem to claim that those atheists who turn to religion during a time of crisis? Are the religious ones any less religious?

 

[dapoes]

Given my lack of faith. I'd rather they call the Geek Squad. At least they are real.

Says volumes.

Try and put your fixation with the internet issue aside for a moment. Are the people who have turned their back on religion during a time a crisis as much of hypocrite as you seem to claim that those atheists who turn to religion during a time of crisis? Are the religious ones any less religious?

Thats where your wrong. Its not even a question of hypocrisy.

 

[Garfield1966]

Says volumes.


Thats where your wrong. Its not even a question of hypocrisy.

I could say that your faith in god speaks volumes as well but your belief is a private matter and not for me to comment on.

Then in your opinion what is it?

 

[Garfield1966]

Coincidentally it is those same people that will turn to (or pray to) GOD when they or a loved one suddenly has a life event: ie stricken with fatal illness, tragic accident, murder, rape, mayhem, etc., and faced with staring into the eyes of the grim reaper.

Let's start over.

Please provide any supporting facts to validate your above argument.

 

[ORDmech]

Then keep your Athieistic beliefs to yourself as well. Thank you

I ignore most of your posts but but I'll bite on this one.

I am not sure what poll you took and how the questions were addressed You do have a poll to verify that claim right?) but I can assure that this is one atheist who has not asked your god or anyone else's for anything. When my mother was dying of amyloidosis 4 years ago I did not pray/ask/talk to god. I accepted the frailty of the human body and sought to make her as comfortable as possible.

When my father and mother were in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, my father nor my mother prayed to god for their life. My father told me on several occasions that if the camps and his experience proved anything to him, it was that there is no god and that the cruelty of man knows no bounds. My mother, grandmother and aunt (all of whom were in the camps as well) agreed with him.

Secondly, just because I say 'god damn it' or 'Jesus Christ' in a fit of frustration or anger does not mean that I believe in it. In times of desperation, people will turn to things that they normally would not. That does not equate belief.

Thirdly. I used to put a tooth under my pillow and look for Easter eggs with my friends. I grew up and learned that there was no bunny. No tooth fairy, no Santa or Hanuka Harry. Zeus and Apollo were also fiction. I believe that god falls into that category as well. You do not. I honestly do not care what you or anyone else believe to be true so long as you keep it private and out of the public domain to which I pay taxes as well. Why you are so concerned as to what we atheists believe and are so dead set determined to prove that we "believe" as well is beyond me.

Fourth. Do you think there are any religious people who in times of desperation turn away from god? Does that make them an atheist in the same way that an atheist who turns to god in a moment of weakness becomes religious? Or is that just a one way street for you?

 

[Garfield1966]

Discussion forums are a bit different than wanting ID taught in school, 10 commandments in publicly funded buildings, prayer in publicly funded schools.... etc.

 

[dapoes]

As far as being held up at gun point not being a lifer altering moment. Not sure if you have ever been held up at gun point, but for me it was quite a life altering event. Let me know when it happens to you and we can compare notes.

Well maybe not, but we were involved in a shattering (t-bone) car accident that split our car in half. Some how we crawled out of the mangled wreckage to the dismay of the emergency crews without only a few scrapes. Seasoned police and emergency crews were stunned and could not believe that anyone could have survived such a major wreck. Body bags were brought out in anticipation. ALl they could say was there was an angel looking over us that day. I have to agree. Maybe there was one that day when you were held up? Or did you call geek squad?

So would being in a Nazi concentration camp be classified as a life shattering/altering event? My dad was sent away from his parents in May of 1939 when he was 14 years old and was liberated by the Russians in 1945. My father was 5'7" and 89 pounds. I am pretty damn sure that qualifies as a lifer altering event. He did not and nor does he believe in god. According to him, he did not ask for gods intervention to save him because if he had, he would have had to blame god for putting him in that hell to begin with and he felt that would have been a wasted circular argument and he had more important things to do. Like figuring out how to survive to the next day.

This was not a personal event of yours. It was someone else's, and you would have no idea what they went thru, nor would I. Somehow I think they would not compare with the horrors you have to go thru like dealing with a passing house pet and not being able to connect to the internet. If only some were so lucky i guess. :huh:

 

[Garfield1966]

I was not making any comparison. I was merely pointed out what my family had endured and the fact that they did not seek salvation from any god. This was in response to your assertion that those who do not believe in god would seek god in a time of need.