Rough Summer Is on the Way for Air Travel

[Travels2mch]

PHL,

Government with limited funds??? You wouldn't think so with their spending hundreds of billions of $$ and human life with no end in sight on a war they now justify for the sake of "democracy";which IRAQ people never asked for!Heck, IRAN is next.

Being that Aviation is important to world commerece and OUR infrastructure...

Personally, I think the ATC are worth their weight in gold...they deal with hundreds of flights in a day...one example comes to mind quickly, and that is on Sept 11, they landed all aircraft commercial and private(including international) in approx. 60 minutes when ordered by National security, and WITHOUT incident. There wasn't a plane in the sky. That's pretty damn amazing in a nation like ours. Can't put a $$ amount on that!

I don't think the flying public would support a huge attrition rate in the ATC arena, nor support a quibble about ATC duty days, salaries, and vacation being decreased.

And unlike the pilot groups, ATC know their value.

Absolutely.....the ATC have our lives in their hands. Excellent point about 9/11....a while back I saw a program that showed all that they were doing to quickly get all those aircraft on the ground, including working with the Canadians to get all of the international flights they put down there. It was truly amazing what they accomplished in such a short amount of time. Add to that, the stress of watching 4 flights go out of control and then realizing what happened.

 

[PHL]

Government with limited funds??? You wouldn't think so with their spending hundreds of billions of $$ and human life with no end in sight on a war they now justify for the sake of "democracy";which IRAQ people never asked for!Heck, IRAN is next.

Yes, the funds are very limited. And, the implication that money being spent on Iraq could be spent paying ATC more money is ill-founded. Let's go back to the fundamental issue of what the payscales will be over the next 5 years in this contract. How much is too much? What's not enough? From the numbers I see, I'm scratching my head as a taxpayer wondering why these folks are having such a hard time swallowing such a pill. And let's be honest, the MAJORITY of ATC personnel work in relatively light to moderate environments. Their work is certainly important, but does the activity justify those high salaries?

Personally, I think the ATC are worth their weight in gold.....one example comes to mind quickly, and that is on Sept 11, they landed all aircraft commercial and private(including international) in approx. 60 minutes when ordered by National security, and WITHOUT incident......And unlike the pilot groups, ATC know their value.

That's a brash statement to make about the pilots. Yes, ATC did a great job. They do it every day, and they are compensated (well, I personally believe) for it. What about all the pilots and crews who worked with ATC to get those planes down? Oh, that's right - they don't know their value to the system.

 

[FWAAA]

I wish that all pilots could be paid $500k/year and that all ATCs could be paid the same amount. Both professions are very important and hold lots of lives in their hands. But money isn't unlimited.

If only all jobs paid $1 million per year, nobody would be poor.

Truth is, current air traffic controllers already make more money than any pilot at US:

Blakey has said her proposal would cut pay 30 percent for new hires, who would earn $93,000 a year excluding benefits after five years on the job. Annual pay for current controllers would rise 9.4 percent over five years to $140,000 a year, from $128,000 now, excluding benefits, she has said.

Blakey has said air-controller wages have risen 74 percent under the 1998 agreement, which remains in effect until a new contract is imposed. FAA spokesman Geoff Basye said he didn't immediately know how long it would take the agency to implement the contract.

74% increase in the pay scale since 1998? Not bad. Better than anyone employed by a legacy airline.

 

[hula-flyguy]

PitBull,

Mike Finn, like Rob Fuhr before him, is the Director of Crew Scheduling. Also like Rob, he has nothing to do with the creation of the airline schedule, which is set by the marketing department.

Agree that Rob was about the best there was.

Thanks, I was fixin to say that.....

As for Mike, seems like a great guy. Would certainly be unfair to judge him since you a. dont know him, b. have never met him, and c. have know clue what his job function is.

That's so unlike you PB. Everything ok?

 

[PITbull]

Yes, the funds are very limited. And, the implication that money being spent on Iraq could be spent paying ATC more money is ill-founded. Let's go back to the fundamental issue of what the payscales will be over the next 5 years in this contract. How much is too much? What's not enough? From the numbers I see, I'm scratching my head as a taxpayer wondering why these folks are having such a hard time swallowing such a pill. And let's be honest, the MAJORITY of ATC personnel work in relatively light to moderate environments. Their work is certainly important, but does the activity justify those high salaries?
That's a brash statement to make about the pilots. Yes, ATC did a great job. They do it every day, and they are compensated (well, I personally believe) for it. What about all the pilots and crews who worked with ATC to get those planes down? Oh, that's right - they don't know their value to the system.

Not my point. I was basically contricdicting your statment that gov. funds are limited....I don't see that as a tax payer. What I see is irresponsibility on how and what money is appropriated. War in IRAQ is unfounded, indeed. If we are going to jam democracy down in IRAQ, we than should be the "Democracy Police for the world" and invade all countries who do not have a democracy. Otherwise, justify the war in IRAQ, outside of saying they were producing and poliferating weapons of mass destruction. They haven't found a gas mask to even justify that lame argument...so now...its forced democracy. And the world has noticed we haven't found Osama YET! The ONLY country that has thrown the "bomb" in history is the US. So, its no wonder that many countries percieve US to be the tyrants of the world. US doesn't play by anone's rules but their own.

And you got one theme right that I wrote...the pilots obviously don't know their value because THEY KEEP CONCEDING TO CONCESSIONS THROUGHOUT AVIATION. The Execs on the other hand have NOT taken or made an adjustment to their pensions and total compensation. NOT ONE IOTA!Whether they perform OR NOT has NO bearing on their compensation.

You want to argue that??????

Thanks, I was fixin to say that.....

As for Mike, seems like a great guy. Would certainly be unfair to judge him since you a. dont know him, b. have never met him, and c. have know clue what his job function is.

That's so unlike you PB. Everything ok?

Everythings fine on my end...how about yours?

 

[PITbull]

Truth is, current air traffic controllers already make more money than any pilot at US:

Truth be told, all legacy mainline pilots make more than U pilots. What's that tell you? And very soon, many industry f/as will be making more than U's F/O on the EM-190...mainline a/c no less.

 

[hula-flyguy]

Things are great here, thanks. A little hectic with graduation coming up and the kids going crazy, but it's fun.

I was just concerned becasue a few of your posts over the last several days weren't quite as conherent as normal.

Hope your're enjoying VLFR!

 

[PITbull]

Things are great here, thanks. A little hectic with graduation coming up and the kids going crazy, but it's fun.

I was just concerned becasue a few of your posts over the last several days weren't quite as conherent as normal.

Hope your're enjoying VLFR!

My writing style is pretty profound, so folks have to be mentally, razor sharp. Perhaps you'll do better when you graduate...is that H.S.? Summers can be hectic, I agree. Maybe when it's over you'll be less distracted. B)

 

[hula-flyguy]

I see you took that the wrong way PB (edited by mod). So be it. I truly do wish you are well...

 

[smorzando]

My writing style is pretty profound, so folks have to be mentally, razor sharp. Perhaps you'll do better when you graduate...is that H.S.? Summers can be hectic, I agree. Maybe when it's over you'll be less distracted. B)

"I can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write faster than anybody who can write better."

 

[PHL]

If we are going to jam democracy down in IRAQ, we than should be the "Democracy Police for the world" and invade all countries who do not have a democracy. Otherwise, justify the war in IRAQ, outside of saying they were producing and poliferating weapons of mass destruction. They haven't found a gas mask to even justify that lame argument...so now...its forced democracy. And the world has noticed we haven't found Osama YET! The ONLY country that has thrown the "bomb" in history is the US. So, its no wonder that many countries percieve US to be the tyrants of the world. US doesn't play by anone's rules but their own.

Not to get too off topic here, but I have to interject when I see such biased, uninformed opinions.

You're right - we play by our rules because they serve our best interests. Who's rules should we play by when we are attacked again?

Now, if you read outside the liberal media you will learn that, in fact, there is unrefuted evidence that Saddam did have a build up of weapons and spent the better part of the 12 years prior to the 2003 invasion evading UN inspectors and hiding/moving his stash. This is documented time and again. He thumbed his nose everytime at efforts to keep him in compliance. Numerous former Iraqi military, including a 2nd highest ranking Iraqi Air Force General, have confirmed this and even went as far as detailing what he moved and when he moved it and how he moved it. This is well, well documented. This has been provided to our media, but it doesn't serve their agenda of painting Iraq as nothing more than an exercise in bullying and senseless American bloodshed. Just because we didn't find any WMDs doesn't mean Iraq wasn't a threat. Many very prominent, popular Democrats over the previous 5 years have even stated as much. If you dig, you can find all this info. If you care to PM me I'll send you some unbiased, factual links.

As much as we hate to see our men and women killed and injured, they are fighting a just cause. And, based on GW Bush's vote in 11/04, it seems the country agreed.

And, yeah - we are the first and last country to use the "BOMB" because it, too, was warranted. Don't you remember what instigated it? Has that country ever attacked our interests again?

 

[PhxMama]

Not to get too off topic here, but I have to interject when I see such biased, uninformed opinions.

You're right - we play by our rules because they serve our best interests. Who's rules should we play by when we are attacked again?

Now, if you read outside the liberal media you will learn that, in fact, there is unrefuted evidence that Saddam did have a build up of weapons and spent the better part of the 12 years prior to the 2003 invasion evading UN inspectors and hiding/moving his stash. This is documented time and again. He thumbed his nose everytime at efforts to keep him in compliance. Numerous former Iraqi military, including a 2nd highest ranking Iraqi Air Force General, have confirmed this and even went as far as detailing what he moved and when he moved it and how he moved it. This is well, well documented. This has been provided to our media, but it doesn't serve their agenda of painting Iraq as nothing more than an exercise in bullying and senseless American bloodshed. Just because we didn't find any WMDs doesn't mean Iraq wasn't a threat. Many very prominent, popular Democrats over the previous 5 years have even stated as much. If you dig, you can find all this info. If you care to PM me I'll send you some unbiased, factual links.

As much as we hate to see our men and women killed and injured, they are fighting a just cause. And, based on GW Bush's vote in 11/04, it seems the country agreed.

And, yeah - we are the first and last country to use the "BOMB" because it, too, was warranted. Don't you remember what instigated it? Has that country ever attacked our interests again?

Two things we should not talk about are politics and religion. Too many people with too many backgrounds. I appreciate your wanting to respond to what you feel are uneducated beliefs but let these things slide, could get nasty.

 

[PITbull]

Not to get too off topic here, but I have to interject when I see such biased, uninformed opinions.

You're right - we play by our rules because they serve our best interests. Who's rules should we play by when we are attacked again?

Now, if you read outside the liberal media you will learn that, in fact, there is unrefuted evidence that Saddam did have a build up of weapons and spent the better part of the 12 years prior to the 2003 invasion evading UN inspectors and hiding/moving his stash. This is documented time and again. He thumbed his nose everytime at efforts to keep him in compliance. Numerous former Iraqi military, including a 2nd highest ranking Iraqi Air Force General, have confirmed this and even went as far as detailing what he moved and when he moved it and how he moved it. This is well, well documented. This has been provided to our media, but it doesn't serve their agenda of painting Iraq as nothing more than an exercise in bullying and senseless American bloodshed. Just because we didn't find any WMDs doesn't mean Iraq wasn't a threat. Many very prominent, popular Democrats over the previous 5 years have even stated as much. If you dig, you can find all this info. If you care to PM me I'll send you some unbiased, factual links.

As much as we hate to see our men and women killed and injured, they are fighting a just cause. And, based on GW Bush's vote in 11/04, it seems the country agreed.

And, yeah - we are the first and last country to use the "BOMB" because it, too, was warranted. Don't you remember what instigated it? Has that country ever attacked our interests again?

Just so we are clear, our man Bushy lost the popular vote. And if the polls are a true indication of how the Nation really feels, run that election today, and he will LOSE by a landslide against Micky Mouse.

Unrefuted evidence??? Please back that up with documented CIA evidence. I'm sure Congress would like to know for sure, to justify a valid reason why the hell we are in there. Don't give me the Right wing mumbo-jumbo horse shitt. China's a threat. North Korea is a threat. Pakistan's a threat. Syria's a threat. Venezuala's a threat, IRAN's a threat. So, should we invade? What's the provacation for war...a threat, spreading democracy in countries who run their government according to their autocrat religion???? Many view US as a threat...we have the bomb, we've used the bomb, what's your point?

What is our interest...world peace??? World Christianity? World Democracy? World Capitalism? Should US invade all countries who don't have free elections? Anyone interested in the genocide occuring in Darfur???

Let me preface...IRAQ did not attack the US. You're confused with the events of 9/11 terrorists and IRAQ. THere is no evidence to show that Saddam was in anyway responsible for the attacks on 9/11. Tyrant he was, and so are many other world leaders. So, that leaves the new argument that IRAQ needed to be democratic, and have free elections. Why? Who says so? What makes us right? It was just so necessary that 2,500 US soldiers had to die, 14,000 injured, and thousands of civilians. And IRAQ people did not invite us in.

To put this thread back on topic, what do you think will happen to summer travel if US is unsuccessful in diplomatic negotiations with IRAN, short of building them a nuclear power plant?

News today reported that oil prices fell on the news that US is in some kind of diplomatic talk with IRAN.

I'd love to know your thoughts on North Korea, are they next because of this threat?

Its more probable that most countries in the world in the next 20 years will have either built the bomb or have the capability. Does US have enough money to buy these countries off, or war power? At what price?

Don't have to answer...just thought provoking.

 

[hp_fa]

PHL:

I'm with PitBull on this. Iraq never attacked us.

(I just wanted to answer before the mods give the "stay on topic" speech. However, I didn't feel I could let your statement stand without a response.)

Respectfully,
hp fa

 

[PITbull]

Watch our phones get tapped next...