NMB Speaks: We Have an Election! ALPA/USAPA Topic for 2/19-26

[BoeingBoy]

I could have sworn that neither of those contracts applied to both pilot groups. Like any contract each of those applies to that company, or in this case pre-merger company, and where new employees (pilots in this case) will fall on the seniority list. The problem is that some fail to recognize that putting companies together is different than hiring new people at an existing company (which each contract is addressing).

But since you're so big on the contracts being a fount of wisdom, what do they say about merging seniority lists???

you fly what your DOH can support. end of discussion!!

So if a 10 year West pilot can fly 757 capt and a 18 year East pilot can fly 737 f/o, that East pilot is below that West pilot, right? Otherwise the East pilot is suddenly able to fly well above what his/her DOH had been supporting while the West pilot is suddenly unable to fly anywhere near what his/her DOH was supporting......

One more vote for the West position.

Jim

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

(despite the carrier they worked for is an anti-customer, regional airline) is more hogwash.
at least the nwa and delta pilots have something to talk about...

The peter principle, which is also at the heart of the matter. It's not so much what happened, as it is that it was the dirtbags from the desert. I remember when UAL and AAA were merging under Wolf several years back a United pilot said of you "We don't need that commuter...." Your merger comittee then was blabering about fishing from the same pool blah blah blah

I wish that merger would have gone through.

 

[Dog Wonder]

It's not so much what happened, as it is that it was the dirtbags from the desert.

OK?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You are being magnanimous towards us westies again now that you fully expect to run over us. Deja vu all over again. Yes, you are welcome on my jumpseat, just as you always have been.

Thanks. You too. We don't expect to "Run over" any of the west folks. We just think a solution to this mess will have a better chance under USAPA. The answer is out there, just not with ALPA.

To be honest, I'd rather have you fellas on my plane than Scooter "Lottery Ticket" or Prater, those two make me want to puke. After all you are only doing what you can get by with, so far anyway. I've got to hand it to you. Of course the jury is still out on whether or not you can waltz in and dictate like you think you will, that is if you even win the vote to begin with.

We hope it doesn't come down to "Dictating" to anybody. Yes, you are right, it all depends on the vote. But facts speak for themselves. The second round of card collecting was the "out" for the ALPA supporters. We ended up with more cards the second time around than the first. So for those who were trying to send ALPA a message the first time around pretty much have made their decision the second time around.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

OK?

A relative integration with United, for instance, probably would not have drawn the same reaction. It would have been more palatable simply because the United pilots would have been looked upon as equals. I'm sure there would be a reaction of sorts, but not like the one we are seeing now.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So if a 10 year West pilot can fly 757 capt and a 18 year East pilot can fly 737 f/o, that East pilot is below that West pilot, right?

Under what conditions? If no merge occurred? The answer is yes. Since we're in a merger, the answer is determined by merged seniority. We just happen to disagree with the methodology and the application of ALPA's "guidelines".

Otherwise the East pilot is suddenly able to fly well above what his/her DOH had been supporting while the West pilot is suddenly unable to fly anywhere near what his/her DOH was supporting......

Not exactly. There are other forces (rules) at work here. I.e. no bump, no flush for example. Second, the 22 year F/O's and all the rest down to the 18 yr. F/O would have something to say about that. So no, there is no sudden movement by anyone. Instead of using the 18 yr. as an example why not use the 22 yr. first? Then it makes the Nic list even more out of line. BTW there are probably at least 800 pilots between the two LOS ranges. Maybe more. I am not sure since I haven't seen a new seniority list in a while.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI:

Council 90 UPDATE

Tuesday, February 19, 2008
Fellow Pilots,

We will be hosting another Informational Briefing at the CLT airport Thursday, February 21, from 10:00 am until 3:00 pm in the conference room behind the Charlotte Business Center on the main level of the terminal in the food court. We have invited John Prater to talk with our pilots. Also, we will have representatives from our Three Man Delegation that has just completed the 10 Day lockdown. Other national officers and local ALPA representatives will be there as well.

This ought to be real interesting.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

This ought to be real interesting.

Tell Prater that somewhere a boar hog is missing one of its teets, and that he should go find it and make it whole once again.

 

[b737fo]

That's the best news I've heard in a long while.

Mark the date. For once I finally agree with something that AAA73Pilot posted. Finally another step in what will be years of strife will be behind us. No more rhetoric from either side of who has the support of this disjointed group. Let's vote already and then the lawyers can get rich off of us no matter who wins!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Tell Prater that somewhere a boar hog is missing one of its teets, and that he should go find it and make it whole once again.

OK I will. Will commute over early just to pass along that message. I was planning on going anyway, now I'm on a mission of huge importance.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Mark the date. For once I finally agree with something that AAA73Pilot posted. Finally another step in what will be years of strife will be behind us. No more rhetoric from either side of who has the support of this disjointed group. Let's vote already and then the lawyers can get rich off of us no matter who wins!

We agree on something? Oh my!!! What am I going to do now? The strife has been and will always be up to us. As for enriching lawyers, once again that is up to us.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Under what conditions? If no merge occurred? The answer is yes.

Silly me - I thought mentioning East and West made it obvious I was talking about a merger situation.

Since we're in a merger, the answer is determined by merged seniority. We just happen to disagree with the methodology and the application of ALPA's "guidelines".

Actually, the root of the disagreement is about the definition of seniority when merging lists - is it a date (DOH) regardless of where that date puts a pilot on one of the individual lists, or is it a pilot's position on one of the individual lists regardless of when the pilot got on that list (the whole "seniority determines equipment flown, etc" thing).

Not exactly. There are other forces (rules) at work here. I.e. no bump, no flush for example.

Not in the post I responded to- "you fly what your DOH can support. end of discussion!!" Would a 12-year (for example - I don't know if it accurate) West pilot's DOH support him/her being a 757 Capt over those 18-22 year East F/O's?

Second, the 22 year F/O's and all the rest down to the 18 yr. F/O would have something to say about that. So no, there is no sudden movement by anyone.

Obviously - there has to be a bid before there's any movement at all. But over time, a person's "new" seniority number takes effect - a 757 capt that doesn't have the "new" seniority to hold that position gets displaced by normal bidding movement while F/O's that were far from upgrade move into the left seat by virtue of their "new" seniority gift. "No Bump/No Flush" does nothing to change that.

Instead of using the 18 yr. as an example why not use the 22 yr. first? Then it makes the Nic list even more out of line.

Not really - if the Nic list went into effect in May 2005, which is the point of time it was constructed for - that F/O would still be close to an upgrade (presumably - I haven't looked back at a bid result for back then to see what longevity was close to upgrading) just like before the list went into effect. Likewise, the West F/O that was close to an upgrade would still be close to an upgrade. A junior Capt or F/O would still be a junior Capt or F/O. Pretty much everyone would have what they had before the Nic list if it had gone into effect that May.

Instead, you not only want that 22-year F/O to have a chance to upgrade before another West F/O, but the 21-year F/O, the 20-year F/O, the 19-year F/O, the 18-year F/O, etc. When you finally get down to the recent new-hires and possibly the CEL pilots (has the MEC decided what longevity to give them yet??), or none of those F/O's bid a Captain vacancy, then you'll graciously give that West F/O a turn. How many years will that be......

I know - conditions and restrictions will make everything wonderful. Put in enough to balance all the inequities of DOH and you're basically back to the same results that the Nic list will produce.

Jim

 

[b737fo]

We agree on something? Oh my!!! What am I going to do now? The strife has been and will always be up to us. As for enriching lawyers, once again that is up to us.

We have plenty of posters on both sides that ensure the strife will be around for awhile. Enriching lawyers has already happened and again with the actions and threats from both sides of the Miss. river, there appears to be no end in sight in the near future.

 

[end_of_alpa]

We have plenty of posters on both sides that ensure the strife will be around for awhile. Enriching lawyers has already happened and again with the actions and threats from both sides of the Miss. river, there appears to be no end in sight in the near future.

And that is why nature invented war.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Delta-Northwest deal may be at risk

Officials say the merger of the two airlines could be in jeopardy because of pilots' disagreement.

"One of the people close to the talks said Tuesday night that a small group of Northwest seniority list pilot negotiators want thousands of young Delta pilots to go to the bottom of the combined seniority list as part of agreeing to a deal on seniority. The person said that was a major hang-up."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/20/news/compa...sion=2008022004

Had me fooled...I thought it was going smoothly, just like here!

It's all because of those old, greedy bas---ds wanting something more!

Not as easy as it looks, is it!