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In simpler times, Franklin said, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Today, the decision to give up freedom for safety has already been made for us. The only thing to debate is how much freedom are we willing to give up for how much safety, real or imagined.
 
FA Mikey said:
story hereLooks like a case of claustrophobia.
Defend them or their actions no way. please post for me where I have defended them or their actions.

I am defending my life liberty and freedom. I will not be part of limiting freedom for the illusion of freedom. It simply doesn't work. Terror has existed since the 11th century. Look no further than the war on drugs and tell me this is workable or winnable.

Our poilcys in Iraq and towards Iran, build
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Mikey,

You and your type would be rounded up and executed like the lady said, if muslims were in charge. Then, they would start converting or executing non muslims wholesale. Make no mistake, that is their grand plan. In Europe they are breeding like rabbits. They live off the very governments that they want to destroy. The info and pictures are available. My god man, what positive contribution has a muslim made to modern society in the last 700 years? Could it be perfecting terrorism?

Put them in camps you ask. Well, if there is an attack here in America - they just might have to, for their own protection! Or offer free boat rides to the sand. B)
 
Vortilon said:
Mikey,

You and your type would be rounded up and executed like the lady said, if muslims were in charge. Then, they would start converting or executing non muslims wholesale. Make no mistake, that is their grand plan. In Europe they are breeding like rabbits. They live off the very governments that they want to destroy. The info and pictures are available. My god man, what positive contribution has a muslim made to modern society in the last 700 years? Could it be perfecting terrorism?

Put them in camps you ask. Well, if there is an attack here in America - they just might have to, for their own protection! Or offer free boat rides to the sand. B)
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Muslims are not in charge, and you fear what, them acting like the christians in the crusades in the 10th century?

Their grand plan? Its no longer terrorists. You want all muslims now. This is how it starts and grows. I would rather not live in your kind of world, or theirs.

In the course of human history every society has contributed to its advancement. Muslims too. Muhammad Bin Musa Alkhwarazmi is considered to be one of the founders of algebra. Ventians learnt the art if glass-making from Syrian artisans during the 9th and 10th century. Muslim horologists had constructed precise time-keeping devices, that were fully auotmatic and weight-driven. The science of chemistry was started for the first time by Muslims – the word ‘alchemy’ is a recognition of this. Jabir-bin-Hayyan is recognised as the father of chemistry. Muslims chemists invented nitric, hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, salt of nitre, salt of peter, calcium carbonate and numerous other salts. They invented laboratory analytical techniques like distillation, sublimation, calcination, crystallisation, to mention a few.
 
I knew it was a case of claustrophobia when I posted that, my point was that it affected me because there is always the fear of terrorism.
Mike, I am an immigrant to this country and I know what it is to not have freedoms. This country is the greatest on earth. Amsuing ancedote, I was in Paris with my daughter who was buying a crepe. The vendor was islamic. He looked a my daughters shirt and said "Oh you are American. I hate your country. I hate your poicies and politics. But I want to move there." He was saying this tongue in cheek but it understates the point, there is nothing better than the USA. Saying that we have to preserve our our freedoms, but not in the sense that you are saying. I want the freedom to go to work and not be frightened of a person of Middle Eastern background, but unless we tighten some of our civil freedoms, I don't see this happening.
 
We do not need to limit freedoms. We need to properly screen people, ALL people the same. We need to screen cargo and our ports. We need to get out of Iraq and stop building policys that breed new terrorists.
 
FA Mikey said:
We do not need to limit freedoms. We need to properly screen people, ALL people the same. We need to screen cargo and our ports. We need to get out of Iraq and stop building policys that breed new terrorists.
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I totally agree with this point, but again the ACLU will cry foul about anything that is done.
 
AAStew said:
I totally agree with this point, but again the ACLU will cry foul about anything that is done.
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Do you know what the ACLU is, or its mission? They take the unpopular fight and work tirelessly in protecting rights for all.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

* Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.
* Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
* Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
* Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

Sometimes they fight for skinheads and abortian foes. But in a word if they are not free to express themselves than neither are we.

Like when the union has to defend some loser we all know and dislike, someone we all know did the crime, so to speak and wins then their job back. One of the reasons they do that is that in the event your typical good guy caught in a situation similar cannot be fired due to a previously set president.

Sometimes you have to defend the scum to save the good. I don't know really how to say it, but that's what liberty and freedoms come down too.
 
FA Mikey said:
We do not need to limit freedoms. We need to properly screen people, ALL people the same. We need to screen cargo and our ports. We need to get out of Iraq and stop building policys that breed new terrorists.
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Mikey, I can agree with a lot of that, but "stop building policies that breed new terrorists" doesn't fly.

The sects hate each other, they hate Jews, they hate Christians and they hate any government that does not have an Ayatollah running it. Their history is rife with conversion by the sword.

Xenophobia, corruption, intolerance, rampant birth rates, and the lust for political power by religious leaders is not new, and is not our fault.
 
By Mikey:

Muslims are not in charge, and you fear what, them acting like the christians in the crusades in the 10th century?

Their grand plan? Its no longer terrorists. You want all muslims now. This is how it starts and grows. I would rather not live in your kind of world, or theirs.

In the course of human history every society has contributed to its advancement. Muslims too. Muhammad Bin Musa Alkhwarazmi is considered to be one of the founders of algebra. Ventians learnt the art if glass-making from Syrian artisans during the 9th and 10th century. Muslim horologists had constructed precise time-keeping devices, that were fully auotmatic and weight-driven. The science of chemistry was started for the first time by Muslims – the word ‘alchemy’ is a recognition of this. Jabir-bin-Hayyan is recognised as the father of chemistry. Muslims chemists invented nitric, hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, salt of nitre, salt of peter, calcium carbonate and numerous other salts. They invented laboratory analytical techniques like distillation, sublimation, calcination, crystallisation, to mention a few.
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Mikey, c'mon - I'm talking more recently then ancient times.

Hey the crusades were only payback for their earlier European conquests. How do you think muslims got as far north as the Balkans. Who; by the way, sided with the nazis during WW2. In fact, they were the ones who turned over American fliers to the nazis when they had to ditch or parachute out over the balkans. Why do you think Milosovitch and the rest of the local Christians felt so strongly about them. They have a long memory - for good reason! Muslims do not have a reputation of being nice anywhere in the world. Not even to help their own kind after an earthquake or tsunami.

Lets not forget them dancing in the streets after 911 around the world. Even here, every taxi driver and 7-11 slurpee pulling vendor was cheering. I know you just want to understand them - kinda like Nick Berg huh.

Take off the rose colored shades Mikey!
 
FA Mikey,

Spare us the usual FA "shiny happy people", "We're all the same" logic (fortunately there are still a few that have accurate view of foreign policy)


Also spare us the belief that Iraq created these savages. 9/11 plus the embassy bombings plus thousands of other violent acts by muslims tell a different tale.

Here is a good response I found on another site:
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Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:
 
Mach85ER said:
FA Mikey,

Spare us the usual FA "shiny happy people", "We're all the same" logic (fortunately there are still a few that have accurate view of foreign policy)
Also spare us the belief that Iraq created these savages. 9/11 plus the embassy bombings plus thousands of other violent acts by muslims tell a different tale.

Here is a good response I found on another site:
------------------------------------------------
Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:
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Whats the point?
 
FA Mikey said:
Whats the point?
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These are all areas they have commited their heinous acts of terrorism. Mike there is no comparison with these low life savages. From the most educated to the mother in Lebanon who claims she has children for hezbollah, if they die she can make more. Read the history of Islam. Christianity which you compare Islam to was started by a peaceful Man/God. What it's followers have occasionally done is the way of sin.
islam was started by a war monging reject named mohammad. This mohammad even had the audacity to have sex with a 10 year old,, (oops,my bad,she was actually 9!) daughter of his brother, breaking his own code of claiming wives, to the dismay of this brother. (Brother is a loose term here, it was a close confidente of mohammad whom he considered as a brother). What good can come from such evil? AYESHA This is a nice little link to his atrocities. SAFIYAH or read about Safiyah one of the "prophets" other willing brides.
 
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