No Joint Contract, No integration "AWARD"

[exB717Flyer]

If something like this is not worked out then if nothing else, the majority of the East pilot group is willing to pull out of JNC talks and live under LOA 93 for the next decade.

May your wish come true.

 

[luvn737s]

It sounds like the east pulling out of Joint Negotiations puts them in breach of the TA and allows Parker to toss out the TA in its entirety including the provisions that prohibit TDY and cross bases, hiring only furloughees at AWA, minimum fleet counts, E-190 pay rates, among others. All the while AWA retains it's option of Section 6.

So do what you think best...

 

[barbeetantrums]

I am looking for the day when an East pilot walks up to a West pilot in a concourse in full public view and just lays the westie pilot out cold with one punch. One solid punch in the jaw will do it. Break that jaw and hear it SNAP! Hopefully, Jerry Glass and Al Heminway will be there to see it and they will snicker themselves silly. Welcome to The World Where the Pigs Live. That is where Jerry and Al live and you are making yourselves comfortable there. <_<

 

[Junebug172]

I am looking for the day when an East pilot walks up to a West pilot in a concourse in full public view and just lays the westie pilot out cold with one punch. One solid punch in the jaw will do it. Break that jaw and hear it SNAP! Hopefully, Jerry Glass and Al Heminway will be there to see it and they will snicker themselves silly. Welcome to The World Where the Pigs Live. That is where Jerry and Al live and you are making yourselves comfortable there. <_<

Ya, all those tough 50 somethings and their monsterous right crosses.

Whatever.

 

[barbeetantrums]

Ya, all those tough 50 somethings and their monsterous right crosses.

Whatever.

I think you missed the point of my post completely. 🙄

 

[USCREW]

I am looking for the day when an East pilot walks up to a West pilot in a concourse in full public view and just lays the westie pilot out cold with one punch. One solid punch in the jaw will do it. Break that jaw and hear it SNAP! <_<

WESTIE........EASTIE

 

[USA320Pilot]

Luvn737s,

US Airways ALPA can continue to stall and appear to negotiate, but never reach a deal, just like management has done at many different companies. Now, there is tremendous benefit to the US Airways East pilot group to do just that because the economic rewards would be higher by remaining separate than living under Nicolau's Opinion & Award.

I believe the best way out of this mess is for strong leadership to make all of the parties recognize it is in the best interest for all to fully integrate the two pilot groups because US Airways ALPA has the ability to not let the Nicolau award be implemented. Thus, there needs to be some other agreement. Lets hope some progress can be made to resolve this mess when Jack Stephan, John McIllvenna, and Scott Kirby discuss the seniority list integration today.

I believe the best way to move forward is for the parties to reach a negotiated settlement and create permanent fences around PHX/LAS and all of the East Coast bases, where a pre-merger AWA pilots could not bid BOS, CLT, DCA, LGA PHL, or PIT (or anything east of the Mississippi River) and vice versa. This way each pilot group does not get a windfall, each pilot group maintains its pre-merger career expectation, and the contracts for the pilots (and the other labor groups) can be combined.

This agreement would need to be comprehensive to provide fair distribution of future growth flying, such as China, Japan, Honk Kong, or Israel flying (that could be split between the groups)/A340s, distribution of EMB-190 flying, and scope protections such as any potential future furloughs would be split, minimum block hour guarantees per side, minimum aircraft guarantees per side, etc. to prevent "whip sawing".

For the pilot groups to integrate and get a combined contract something like the option I described above needs to be implemented or we could see ALPA East drag this out for the next decade or for ALPA East to lead the dercertification of ALPA on both properties, East and West, with the East forcing it upon the West.

Regards,

USA32OPilot

 

[barbeetantrums]

WESTIE........EASTIE

As I said...Where the Pigs Live. Difference between Beavis & Butthead and Eastie/Westie is that they were friends and they would get over a fight as quickly as it started. They also had very short attention spans.

 

[nycbusdriver]

As I said...Where the Pigs Live. Difference between Beavis & Butthead and Eastie/Westie is that they were friends and they would get over a fight as quickly as it started. They also had very short attention spans.

This is where pilots are different from Beavis and Butthead. Pilots have very long attention spans and some even have the innate ability to hold a grudge FOREVER. And do.

I heard a story once about a United Air Lines 747 captain flying over the Pacific in the early 1980s bemoaning the fact that, as an original Capitol Airlines pilot, he had been f**ked over by UAL in the merger. That merger happened in 1961, and here he was at the very top of the aviation heap still b***hing about what had happened over 20 years earlier.

I didn't understand it until I lived through several mergers. Now the rage I am seeing is perfectly plausible, and, sadly, will NEVER go away.

 

[AWA320]

Ya, all those tough 50 somethings and their monsterous right crosses.

Whatever.

Junebug, ignore some of these lame selfish people. How are your two ladies?? It was good seeing you last week and meeting your mom. tell G I said hey.

 

[700UW]

Stop practicing law you know nothing about.

The only way a contract can be forced upon you is after a PEB is declared after a 30 day cooling off period and you still reject it, Congress can legistate our contract.

Only the RLA applies in regard to airline CBAs, nothing else.

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn737s,

US Airways ALPA can continue to stall and appear to negotiate, but never reach a deal, just like management has done at many different companies. Now, there is tremendous benefit to the US Airways East pilot group to do just that because the economic rewards would be higher by remaining separate than living under Nicolau's Opinion & Award.

I believe the best way out of this mess is for strong leadership to make all of the parties recognize it is in the best interest for all to fully integrate the two pilot groups because US Airways ALPA has the ability to not let the Nicolau award be implemented. Thus, there needs to be some other agreement. Lets hope some progress can be made to resolve this mess when Jack Stephan, John McIllvenna, and Scott Kirby discuss the seniority list integration today.

I believe the best way to move forward is for the parties to reach a negotiated settlement and create permanent fences around PHX/LAS and all of the East Coast bases, where a pre-merger AWA pilots could not bid BOS, CLT, DCA, LGA PHL, or PIT (or anything east of the Mississippi River) and vice versa. This way each pilot group does not get a windfall, each pilot group maintains its pre-merger career expectation, and the contracts for the pilots (and the other labor groups) can be combined.

This agreement would need to be comprehensive to provide fair distribution of future growth flying, such as China, Japan, Honk Kong, or Israel flying (that could be split between the groups)/A340s, distribution of EMB-190 flying, and scope protections such as any potential future furloughs would be split, minimum block hour guarantees per side, minimum aircraft guarantees per side, etc. to prevent "whip sawing".

For the pilot groups to integrate and get a combined contract something like the option I described above needs to be implemented or we could see ALPA East drag this out for the next decade or for ALPA East to lead the dercertification of ALPA on both properties, East and West, with the East forcing it upon the West.

Regards,

USA32OPilot

There is nothing that would motivate the west to do anything that is not in it's best interest.

Decertification is a paper tiger, since the margin of swing voters is too close. Remember, you have to offer something tangible to get a vote and build a coalition and vengeance isn't tangible. The west has an EVP which could yield benefits in keeping things together.

False negotiating would only lead to the east being dragged into court to prove they are in breach of the agreement and releasing management of their obligations in the TA and allowing them ALL of the synergies without spending a dime.

The West could wrap up their side of joint negotiations quickly and expose the east's bad faith negotiating with would lead to tearing up the TA and living with the east contract with west domiciles in PHL, LGA, BOS, etc.

The more unilateral moves the east makes, the worse they make it for themselves. Often times during negotiations, various wildcats take it upon themselves to do something which results in them being discipled and held "hostage". This usually requires the union to give up something to get them off the hook. Unilateral actions by the east would have the same effect, but the west would be hesitant to offer assistance to a group that has made it's true intentions clear.

The only viable option the east has is to work at attaining the best contract possible and see what the future really yields. I would expect vacancies would only be announced that included both sides. Plus who is to say that the airline won't decide to shrink it's available seats and not fill all the vacancies left by retirements.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Luvn737s,

I guarantee you your analysis is wrong. Moreover, I know for fact that decertifying ALPA and forcing decertifying ALPA off both the US Airways and AWA property was thoroughly discussed at yesterday's East MEC meeting.

In regard to swing votes, there are about 3,100 US Airways pilots, 1,800 AWA pilots, and potentially 1,500 furloughed US Airways pilots who could vote. I hardly think the AWA pilots can get any US Airways pilot to vote in their direction, thus, where would be the swing votes? It does not take much to see how the representational election went for the IAM on this property and why the IAM won.

Nothing is off of the table and John Prater, John McIlvenna, Doug Parker, and Scott Kirby explicitly know this is an East pilot group option.

It might be last resort option, but there is MEC and pilot group support to pursue this option, if necessary.

Simply put, the Nicolau award that placed an AWA 3-month tenure copilot ahead of a 19-year US Airways copilot will not proceed and there is nothing, absolutely nothing the West pilots can do about it.

I have never seen such pilot resolve before and the award will not stand.

As far as negotiations, the AWA pilot group is bound by the Transition Agreement and as John McIlvenna said on Friday's Hotline in regard to contract negotiations, "all bets are off."

Finally, I believe the America West pilots will get to keep thier PHX/LAS flying, not be able to bid East, not fly transatlantic (except for two B757 flights per day), not be able to fly from PHL to Asia, and will not be able to obtain EMB-190 flying for a very, very long time, if ever, unless this dispute is resolved. Why? Because that is what the Transition Agreement and Arbitrations require.

Moreover, with US Airways East pilots averaging 250 pilot retirements per year and the AWA pilots averaging 50 pilot retirements per year, the AWA pilots will have very little seniority list growth opportunites due to the Transition Agreement and the Company's plan to have very little domestic growth, which will lead to many, many years of AWA pilot stagnation, unless something changes.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Freighterguynow]

In the next ten years the East pilots have 2,497


the majority of the East pilot group is willing to pull out of JNC talks and live under LOA 93 for the next decade.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Amen. 10 years from now formerly furloughed pilots will be in the top 500 and Airbus 330 Captains with the list unmerged.

LOA 93 ain't pretty but this 'reward' is worse.

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn737s,


In regard to swing votes, there are about 3,100 US Airways pilots, 1,800 AWA pilots, and potentially 1,500 furloughed US Airways pilots who could vote. I hardly think the AWA pilots can get any US Airways pilot to vote in their direction, thus, where would be the swing votes?
USA320Pilot

The top 500 protected pilots and virtually all the captains would gain nothing by decertifying and the furloughees would likely not be permitted to vote in a decertification election. That leaves the F/O's to carry the vote and they simply do not have the numbers. The influence of the AWA EVP should not be discounted either.

Instead of pursuing dead-ends as a means of proving to the pilots they are at least going somewhere, the east should realize the hand they truly have and play it to their best advantage. That means accepting the arbitrators decision and moving forward productively. The AAA MEC has a duty to it's members to do this.