Northwest Mechanics Better Off In Bankruptcy?
- Thread starter Strake
- Start date
Strake said:
Actually AMFA said they would not agree to concessions so that NWA could go into BK and get more concessions, which is exactly what NWA appears to be doing.
What have they done? They raised the standard for mechanics throughout the industry. All you have to do is look at how other TWU members at AA have fared. Mechanics base hourly wage is still higher than it was in 2000, thats because thanks to AMFA mechanics got a much bigger raise than anyone else under the TWU at AA.
What was AMFAs goal? To unite all M&R under one union, like the pilots, flight attendants, electricians, plumbers, carpenters etc. Are all those unions elitists or "anti-union" because they do not ascribe to business industrial unionism?
What has being divided up between several business unions- who despite AFL-CIO affiliation offer no support whatsoever to each other, done for airline workers in this industry over the last twenty years? Dont even think about saying that they have a job, 87% of the population has a job with no union.
Bob Owens said:
I assume AA is still paying you enough to make it worth your while to scan in everyday? If not why haven't you moved on, lots of tall buildings in NYC, hence lots of elevator repair jobs. In case you haven't noticed elevators have to be inspected regularly and the inspector has to sign his name, so you can still have vast responsibility for pax safety 😀
RDU Jetblast
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j7915 said:
Did you know that elevator mechanics in NYC make 42.00/hr?
That signature is expensive.
eolesen
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Yet for all the times Bob has talked about how much elevator mechanics make, or how well paid workers at WN and Con-Ed are, he still shows up each and every working day at AA.
If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk, bud. Want more money? According to you, it's out there. It ain't gonna happen here.
If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk, bud. Want more money? According to you, it's out there. It ain't gonna happen here.
Former ModerAAtor said:
But, but, but . . . if we can orchestrate an industry-wide strike, then the govenment will have to step in and fix everything!! Everything will be perfect then. [/fantasyrant] 😀
If I were so dissatisfied with my pay since at least 1983, I would have quit and taken one of those better opportunities. After all, taking care of the family is much more important to me than fighting for "unionism principles." Family can't eat or wear or drive or live in or be educated at expensive schools with those "unionism principles." Takes money to do those things. Spending one's entire working career whining about how awful my employer and union and Tulsa overhaul co-workers (who are grossly overpaid compared to us NEW Yorkers) are doesn't seems like misplaced priorities, IMO. Life's too short.
Hackman
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We unionists continuously hear the same; "Why don't you just quit if you don't like it", or "Your just a disgruntled union worker and you should just face reality you lost". Sorry to say it again, but we don't give up that easy. I will fight for my "union principles" until I feel it is no longer worth it. I'll quit when I say so, and not before.FWAAA said:
There is no company lackey, twu sucka$$, or bought off judge that will tell me when I'm done fighting. 😉
Wretched Wrench
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I'm not Bob, but I will respond to the non- ad hominum components, at least from my own perspective.
Some of us love airplanes, and hope or even believe things can be improved. Many of us love airplanes so much we do it for free in our off time or after retirement.
Elevators are not nearly as interesting nor as challenging as airplanes.
Ever heard of Golden Handcuffs? Many of us are kept here by the possibility and hope of drawing a retirement from AA, although that hope is diminishing rapidly lately. Some of us even have some hope that the PBGC will give us a fraction of our retirement when and if AA defaults on the defined benefit retirement plan. I would venture to say that if we had a defined contribution retirement plan many of us would be long gone, as it would be portable. BTW, it is only a matter of time until AA converts to that. After that happens, the best and the brightest will leave, and only the non compos mentis will remain. We are seeing some of that already. We are seeing a parallel situation in those entering this career field. Sort of a reverse Darwinism.....only the least fit remain. I have seen it over the years with layoffs, too. If you lay off ten guys, two will be top wrenches, two will be slugs and six will be average. You know, the typical bell curve. When recall comes around, both of the slugs will be back, half or so of the average guys, and none or maybe one of the aces.
So what it comes down to is that your airplanes are going to be maintained by an ever- diminishing number of guys like Bob, who love it, and an ever-increasing number of NCOs. (No Chance on the Outside). This wouldn't have worked on DC 6s and 7s. It might work on today's airplanes, with the self-diagnostic capabilities and backups. It will get worse when the airlines start hiring Third World pilots for a quarter of the wages. Cheap maintenance and cheap pilots is a deadly combination. Time will tell.
Some of us love airplanes, and hope or even believe things can be improved. Many of us love airplanes so much we do it for free in our off time or after retirement.
Elevators are not nearly as interesting nor as challenging as airplanes.
Ever heard of Golden Handcuffs? Many of us are kept here by the possibility and hope of drawing a retirement from AA, although that hope is diminishing rapidly lately. Some of us even have some hope that the PBGC will give us a fraction of our retirement when and if AA defaults on the defined benefit retirement plan. I would venture to say that if we had a defined contribution retirement plan many of us would be long gone, as it would be portable. BTW, it is only a matter of time until AA converts to that. After that happens, the best and the brightest will leave, and only the non compos mentis will remain. We are seeing some of that already. We are seeing a parallel situation in those entering this career field. Sort of a reverse Darwinism.....only the least fit remain. I have seen it over the years with layoffs, too. If you lay off ten guys, two will be top wrenches, two will be slugs and six will be average. You know, the typical bell curve. When recall comes around, both of the slugs will be back, half or so of the average guys, and none or maybe one of the aces.
So what it comes down to is that your airplanes are going to be maintained by an ever- diminishing number of guys like Bob, who love it, and an ever-increasing number of NCOs. (No Chance on the Outside). This wouldn't have worked on DC 6s and 7s. It might work on today's airplanes, with the self-diagnostic capabilities and backups. It will get worse when the airlines start hiring Third World pilots for a quarter of the wages. Cheap maintenance and cheap pilots is a deadly combination. Time will tell.
Ken MacTiernan
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Yet for all the times Bob has talked about how much elevator mechanics make, or how well paid workers at WN and Con-Ed are, he still shows up each and every working day at AA.
Perhaps Bob and others, myself included, believe that our profession is worth fighting for. AMFA AMTs at NWA sure feel that way. If it was left up to cowards who can not even post their identity when attacking those willing to fight I'm sure that even third world countries doing maintenance on American registered carriers would be considered overpaid.
You wish to LEARN & UNDERSTAND why our profession is proud & skilled go to www.amtausa.com.
Perhaps Bob and others, myself included, believe that our profession is worth fighting for. AMFA AMTs at NWA sure feel that way. If it was left up to cowards who can not even post their identity when attacking those willing to fight I'm sure that even third world countries doing maintenance on American registered carriers would be considered overpaid.
You wish to LEARN & UNDERSTAND why our profession is proud & skilled go to www.amtausa.com.
eolesen
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Ken, y'all are absolutely right to believe that your profession is worth fighting for, and that's admirable. But there's a big difference between your profession and the company you work for.
If you despise the company and/or the union representing you so much, at some point you need to walk away.
And forgive me if I don't buy the lowest common denominator argument. Even at places like UA and US where people have gone thru far worse than what AA employees have had to tolerate, you still find highly skilled people who do enjoy what they do and also like the company they work for.
The same goes for all the folks who hung on at TW -- they may have despised Icahn, but they still love(d) the company up to the end.
As for the people who do decide to work for less than you think is acceptable..... you can stand there and say they're not as qualified, but I don't think that's really all that accurate. I don't see a whole lot of difference in the work that some of the junior Eagle mechanics do vs. what I see with the senior AA mechanics. Sure, there's an experience level difference, but they're also a little more open to learning how to look at something differently, and without the hate blinders that 20+ years of bitterness can bring.
And, for the record, there were a couple of cowards (who still post on this board) who attempted (unsucessfully) to have me fired for posting under my own name a few years back. So forgive me if I also don't agree with your position on the credibilty of people using screen names. It's great that you can use your own name, but if those of us who aren't on your side didn't use screen names, there wouldn't be much discussion.
If you despise the company and/or the union representing you so much, at some point you need to walk away.
And forgive me if I don't buy the lowest common denominator argument. Even at places like UA and US where people have gone thru far worse than what AA employees have had to tolerate, you still find highly skilled people who do enjoy what they do and also like the company they work for.
The same goes for all the folks who hung on at TW -- they may have despised Icahn, but they still love(d) the company up to the end.
As for the people who do decide to work for less than you think is acceptable..... you can stand there and say they're not as qualified, but I don't think that's really all that accurate. I don't see a whole lot of difference in the work that some of the junior Eagle mechanics do vs. what I see with the senior AA mechanics. Sure, there's an experience level difference, but they're also a little more open to learning how to look at something differently, and without the hate blinders that 20+ years of bitterness can bring.
And, for the record, there were a couple of cowards (who still post on this board) who attempted (unsucessfully) to have me fired for posting under my own name a few years back. So forgive me if I also don't agree with your position on the credibilty of people using screen names. It's great that you can use your own name, but if those of us who aren't on your side didn't use screen names, there wouldn't be much discussion.
Ken MacTiernan
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Former ModerAAtor said:
FM,
"If you despise the company and/or the union representing you so much, at some point you need to walk away."
I would say I despise my union because of their undemocratic structure and good old boy appointment system. That is the international I should say. I support my Local because if someone is NOT doing as they claimed they would while running for election I will have the ability to vote them out. As for the company I do not despise them but rather have great anger towards them for their lack of common bussiness sense in recognizing that if you treat your employees with respect you have a better motivated work force.
With my deep feelings such as they are for AA & the twu I feel that things will only change for the better when men & women are willing to do what is right to correct what is broken.
As for people who have "suffered" more than we at AA have who remain highly skilled and enjoy their jobs I agree. But these people are leaving or being laid off and there is no large increase in the A&P schools to replace these individuals. Most who remain are waiting for the first chance they can retire and never look back.
I do not see a difference between AA & AE AMTs. Jet or turboprop, one or 200 passenger a/c it doesn't matter. These AMTs carry the same responsibilities each time they touch their respective a/c.
As for your posting under your own name why were you targeted for being fired? Did you post lies, personal attacks or the truth about topics/events? I believe you understand my standing on the "coward" comment. I actually like most screen names/alias', they can be creative. It just amazes me that if someone like say our friend cio believes so much in the abilities of the twu why must he hide behind an alias and attack those who dislike the twu? Using an alias doesn't make an individual a coward. It simply gives a grain of salt to be taken with each post.
Former ModerAAtor,Sep 15 2005, 08:35 PM]
Even at places like UA and US where people have gone thru far worse than what AA employees have had to tolerate, you still find highly skilled people who do enjoy what they do and also like the company they work for.
Far worse? Why because they met the AA/TWU concessions? Its my understanding that at UAL while the DB has been terminated they replaced it with a 401k match. Isnt that what the AA did to their non union coworkers?
The same goes for all the folks who hung on at TW -- they may have despised Icahn, but they still love(d) the company up to the end.
Anybody who "loves" the company that they work for is a moron. A company is a wealth machine with no capacity for human emotion. By law it has to put generating wealth for its owners, which in the case of AA are primarily other corporations, as its number 1 priority.
As for the people who do decide to work for less than you think is acceptable..... you can stand there and say they're not as qualified, but I don't think that's really all that accurate. I don't see a whole lot of difference in the work that some of the junior Eagle mechanics do vs. what I see with the senior AA mechanics.
Would you know the difference? What makes you qualified to judge?
Sure, there's an experience level difference, but they're also a little more open to learning how to look at something differently, and without the hate blinders that 20+ years of bitterness can bring.
Actually most are only bitter since 2003. Prior to that most were doing whatever they could to help.
And, for the record, there were a couple of cowards (who still post on this board) who attempted (unsucessfully) to have me fired for posting under my own name a few years back.
Maybe you need a union or put in a just cause clause into your agreement with the company?
So forgive me if I also don't agree with your position on the credibilty of people using screen names.
Well aliases and credibility dont usually go hand in hand. Buts its your right to use one here if you fear retaliation for expressing yourself. Its when you try to make personal attacks attacking the credibility of others by name when your use of an alias makes you a hypocrite and opens you up to the valid charge of being a coward.
It's great that you can use your own name, but if those of us who aren't on your side didn't use screen names, there wouldn't be much discussion.
Why not? Could it be that use of a screen name allows you to lie?
Even at places like UA and US where people have gone thru far worse than what AA employees have had to tolerate, you still find highly skilled people who do enjoy what they do and also like the company they work for.
Far worse? Why because they met the AA/TWU concessions? Its my understanding that at UAL while the DB has been terminated they replaced it with a 401k match. Isnt that what the AA did to their non union coworkers?
The same goes for all the folks who hung on at TW -- they may have despised Icahn, but they still love(d) the company up to the end.
Anybody who "loves" the company that they work for is a moron. A company is a wealth machine with no capacity for human emotion. By law it has to put generating wealth for its owners, which in the case of AA are primarily other corporations, as its number 1 priority.
As for the people who do decide to work for less than you think is acceptable..... you can stand there and say they're not as qualified, but I don't think that's really all that accurate. I don't see a whole lot of difference in the work that some of the junior Eagle mechanics do vs. what I see with the senior AA mechanics.
Would you know the difference? What makes you qualified to judge?
Sure, there's an experience level difference, but they're also a little more open to learning how to look at something differently, and without the hate blinders that 20+ years of bitterness can bring.
Actually most are only bitter since 2003. Prior to that most were doing whatever they could to help.
And, for the record, there were a couple of cowards (who still post on this board) who attempted (unsucessfully) to have me fired for posting under my own name a few years back.
Maybe you need a union or put in a just cause clause into your agreement with the company?
So forgive me if I also don't agree with your position on the credibilty of people using screen names.
Well aliases and credibility dont usually go hand in hand. Buts its your right to use one here if you fear retaliation for expressing yourself. Its when you try to make personal attacks attacking the credibility of others by name when your use of an alias makes you a hypocrite and opens you up to the valid charge of being a coward.
It's great that you can use your own name, but if those of us who aren't on your side didn't use screen names, there wouldn't be much discussion.
Why not? Could it be that use of a screen name allows you to lie?
eolesen
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Ken MacTiernan said:
My opinion is that it's because I was shooting down lies, clarifying inaccurate information about topics/events, and stopping personal attacks. Therefore, I was a threat to people more concerned with spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
So, someone felt compelled to contact the anonymous 800 number, and accused me of using company time and computers to post on the internet.
Apparently, the person who complained never considered things like me using a personal laptop with a cellular connection on my lunch and smoke breaks. So, I still have my job.
I'm more than willing to, but as long as the spineless worm who filed the complaint is still able to hide behind a cloak of anonymity, rather than face someone man to man, my lawyer has advised that I not use my name wherever anonymous screen names are permitted.
j7915 said:
You and CIO are the two most pathetic excuses for "union" men going. You sound more like company than union. Your circular logic is a simple and pathetic attempt to divert discussions away from real issues.
The fact is you say "go ahead and quit if you dont like it", this is a company line, pure and simple, so at the moment you are wearing your company hat, then if I did quit you two morons would switch on your union hat and bellow out "he is a quitter".
Union people dont just accept what the company wants to give them, they fight to get a fair share. But then again what would either of you know about being "union"?
