Northwest, Unions Need New Flight Plan
- Thread starter Checking it Out
- Start date
Well it seems that the TWU is jumping up and down about how AMFA has lost 47% of it mechanics. How much have the AFL-CIO unions at NWA lost?
Despite giving up most of what we had we are still losing mechanics daily. Mechanics that retire are not being replaced. Over the last year or so we lost over 2000 mechanics.
This has always been a cyclical industry, and every time we go through the cycle we are told that these changes are "permanent". But three years or so later there is another shortage of workers.
We have always accepted these cycles and the layoffs they bring, however we developed a seniority system so that over time we would not be as severely affected by these cycles. Thats the way it was, if you were junior you hit the steets and the guys with time stayed. That is no longer the case with the TWU. The older NWA guys who put in their time can ride out this downturn. They have security. They can ride it out till they retire. The older guys at AA are looking for second jobs to make ends meet. The older AA guys are reeling from concessions in which there will be no recovery. The older guys at AA will see their pensions reduced the longer they stay. The older guys were unprotected by the seniority system which the TWU has dismantled. The younger guys at NWA will have a good job to go back to. Nobody at AA has a better future to look forward to. The best years are behind them. In fact the guys at AA have not only lost most of their benifits but their hourly rate in unadjusted dollars will be lower near the end of the decade than it was in the beginning of the decade. With inflation piucking up their 'real' wage will be much much lower than it was.
Sure NWA is getting hit hard now, but they will recover, we never will as long as we have the TWU.
Despite giving up most of what we had we are still losing mechanics daily. Mechanics that retire are not being replaced. Over the last year or so we lost over 2000 mechanics.
This has always been a cyclical industry, and every time we go through the cycle we are told that these changes are "permanent". But three years or so later there is another shortage of workers.
We have always accepted these cycles and the layoffs they bring, however we developed a seniority system so that over time we would not be as severely affected by these cycles. Thats the way it was, if you were junior you hit the steets and the guys with time stayed. That is no longer the case with the TWU. The older NWA guys who put in their time can ride out this downturn. They have security. They can ride it out till they retire. The older guys at AA are looking for second jobs to make ends meet. The older AA guys are reeling from concessions in which there will be no recovery. The older guys at AA will see their pensions reduced the longer they stay. The older guys were unprotected by the seniority system which the TWU has dismantled. The younger guys at NWA will have a good job to go back to. Nobody at AA has a better future to look forward to. The best years are behind them. In fact the guys at AA have not only lost most of their benifits but their hourly rate in unadjusted dollars will be lower near the end of the decade than it was in the beginning of the decade. With inflation piucking up their 'real' wage will be much much lower than it was.
Sure NWA is getting hit hard now, but they will recover, we never will as long as we have the TWU.
- Thread Starter
- #18
Sure NWA is getting hit hard now, but they will recover, we never will as long as we have the TWU.
Bob are you living in the same world as the rest of us?
The TWU is the only union who has successfuly retained full overhaul capabilities. As members retire the need will be greater to replace them at AA than any airline Amfa represents. In fact some recalls to AMT positions are taking place now.
Bob are you living in the same world as the rest of us?
The TWU is the only union who has successfuly retained full overhaul capabilities. As members retire the need will be greater to replace them at AA than any airline Amfa represents. In fact some recalls to AMT positions are taking place now.
- Thread Starter
- #19
In fact with the poor turnout last week pretty well assures that NWA will continue the decimation of the AMT's. I understand in the next 18 months or so you will see another 25% of the positions lost at NWA.
That's bull crap and you know it Bob!!! Those NWA jobs are gone forever!! Amfa is taking credit for something they really had NOTHING to do to with! And you mention the "old" guys at NWA. . . . .THAT'S ALL THAT ARE LEFT BOB!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone else (the "youngs guys") ARE GONE!!!!! You can credit that to amfa's radical stance!!! Amfa is not in the business of protecting the professoin Bob. They have already proven that. Sorry, not buying your song and dance on this one Bob.
Hackman
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- Sep 30, 2003
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" RETAINED FULL OVERHAUL CAPABILITIES"Checking it Out said:
Would you please explain what this means cio? Does this mean that AA has no work outsourced? Does this mean that we have every AMT recalled? Do tell.
I can't wait to hear what your twisted and dizzy twu slant is on this foolish statement.
There is no way Mr. Owens is in your world. Your world is by far.......your own.
NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!
You said that at least six months ago. Still havent seen any recalls. Where are they?Checking it Out said:
Look I've been in this industry since 1980. I remember when the junior man at UAL/JFK had 25 years seniority. The junior man at aa/JFK had around 10 years. Its not as bad as that now. They all went back, with the exception of those who had had enough of aviation.twuer said:
In a few years we will hear them talking about a "shortage" of A&Ps again, just like last time, and the time before that, and the time before that,,,.
The fact is that aviation in other parts of the world is growing, as it does those foreign companies will work on their own stuff.
AMFA is the only union that has any real intentions on protecting the profession. Tell me how you figure that the TWU is protecting the profession. By transferring recieving and dispatch to fleet? Thereby eliminating the need for mechanics at any line station. Same with deicing. Have you ever flown into Buffalo and seen the big AA hangar there? How many mechanics do we have in Buffalo? None. Not anymore since the TWU's station staffing formula completely omits saying that ANY mechanics are required, it only says TWU members. When R&D was transferred over, mechanics positions in stations all over the system were permanently eliminated, never to return. How does that help mechanics? Are they protecting the profession by creating subclasses of mechanics that further reduce the need for A&P mechanics? How does decreasing demand help the profession TWUer? Once again we see thousands of A&P positions permanently eliminated through precident setting TWU language. Or maybe you figure that they are protecting the profession by lowering our compensation by 25%? Dont even bother to talk about FAR 145, they did nothing for over 10 years and only started on the issue after AMFA trounced the IAM at NWA. How about FAR 66? Isnt it true that our OSM program is setting the stage for FAR 66 and company issued certification? How will that help the profession?
The fact is that the TWU would be willing to eliminate every single A&P position if it meant more members and dues for the TWU. This union cares nothing about the profession of A&Ps. Never has, never will.
- Thread Starter
- #25
SECURITY SIGNALS
NWA mechanics picket to protest outsourcing aircraft maintenance
BY MARTIN J. MOYLAN
Pioneer Press
Northwest Airlines' union mechanics looked to win public support Friday for their efforts to stem the airline's outsourcing of aircraft maintenance — both domestically and overseas — and tighten what mechanics complain are lax security standards for non-airline employees who service commercial airliners.
Working in shifts throughout a day when temperatures hit the high 80s, some 100 mechanics picketed and distributed leaflets at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.They carried signs saying, "Aviation Security is National Security" and "Unemployed Due To Outsourcing."
"We want to get the message out about how they don't have to go through the same security checks we do — the 10-year background checks, the fingerprinting," said Jim Atkinson, president of Local 33 of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. "There's a big gap in aviation security."
Then there's the jobs issue. Some 2,700 mechanics laid off by Northwest in the past three years could be back at work if the airline did all its maintenance in-house, rather than sending much of it to be done by outside firms in the United States and Asia, Atkinson said.
But the union feels that any maintenance work by non-Northwest mechanics, whether done in the United States or abroad, can compromise security.
The union is urging citizens to contact their representatives in Washington, D.C., and call for greater security requirements and a halt to the flow of jobs overseas. It has launched a Web site devoted to the issue: aviationoutsourcing.com.
Security and safety are touchy issues in the airline industry, reflected in earlier warnings from Northwest that workers who questioned the carrier's safety during informational picketing could be fired.
Later, the airline said it respected the right of workers to picket "so long as their behavior is not disparaging to the business of Northwest Airlines."
Eagan-based Northwest insists that while its costs for outsourced maintenance are lower than they are for in-house maintenance, quality, safety and security are not compromised. No U.S. carrier does all of its aircraft maintenance in-house, and many send much more work to outside vendors than Northwest does, the airline has said.
The mechanics' concerns resonated with at least some of the passengers who lingered outside the airport's main terminal Friday.
"I think they're right on the money," said Jason Garson of Cleveland. "Anything involving the maintenance or security of a domestic airline should be done domestically, unless they meet the same security standards we have in the U.S."
Art Stursberg, a union carpenter from New York, had similar views. "What will it take?" he said. "A couple of planes taking a dive? They're trying to bust the union. You see this all over the place."
Mark Natzel of Glencoe, Minn., said he doesn't assume planes maintained by outside vendors are unsafe but the Northwest mechanics raise concerns that warrant attention. For him, the jobs argument hit home more.
"If we outsource it, it doesn't do much for our economy," he said.
Yet others were more skeptical. Rayna Brandt of Wausau, Wis., said she figures proper checks are in place to ensure planes are well-maintained and secure even when outside vendors work on them.
"With all the security here, I'm not that concerned about it," she said.
Dave Green of Kansas City said the mechanics must recognize the intense competitive pressures Northwest faces to cut costs.
"Northwest is competing with some pretty tough airlines, and Northwest owes it to shareholders to keep costs down," he said. "If it doesn't, the other airlines will run it out of business."
The mechanics' contract with Northwest limits the airline to spending 38 percent of maintenance labor dollars with outside vendors, and it will likely bump up against that limit this year, Atkinson said.
The airline has signaled that it would like to negotiate the right to raise the ceiling to about 48 percent, he added.
Northwest has said it hires vendors for about 25 percent of the heavy maintenance work on its planes. And about half of its outsourced maintenance work is done in Asia. Note other sources says this number is higher!
The airline, which has lost about $2.1 billion on its operations since the start of 2001, has deemed the outsourcing of aircraft maintenance a "competitive tool" in its drive to regain profitability.
Like I said this was a complete flop!!! Look at what TWU did when the bases were threatened to be closed!!!! It is obvious the difference in representation! Dont be fooled by the lies and deception Amfa is famous for!!!!
NWA mechanics picket to protest outsourcing aircraft maintenance
BY MARTIN J. MOYLAN
Pioneer Press
Northwest Airlines' union mechanics looked to win public support Friday for their efforts to stem the airline's outsourcing of aircraft maintenance — both domestically and overseas — and tighten what mechanics complain are lax security standards for non-airline employees who service commercial airliners.
Working in shifts throughout a day when temperatures hit the high 80s, some 100 mechanics picketed and distributed leaflets at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.They carried signs saying, "Aviation Security is National Security" and "Unemployed Due To Outsourcing."
"We want to get the message out about how they don't have to go through the same security checks we do — the 10-year background checks, the fingerprinting," said Jim Atkinson, president of Local 33 of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. "There's a big gap in aviation security."
Then there's the jobs issue. Some 2,700 mechanics laid off by Northwest in the past three years could be back at work if the airline did all its maintenance in-house, rather than sending much of it to be done by outside firms in the United States and Asia, Atkinson said.
But the union feels that any maintenance work by non-Northwest mechanics, whether done in the United States or abroad, can compromise security.
The union is urging citizens to contact their representatives in Washington, D.C., and call for greater security requirements and a halt to the flow of jobs overseas. It has launched a Web site devoted to the issue: aviationoutsourcing.com.
Security and safety are touchy issues in the airline industry, reflected in earlier warnings from Northwest that workers who questioned the carrier's safety during informational picketing could be fired.
Later, the airline said it respected the right of workers to picket "so long as their behavior is not disparaging to the business of Northwest Airlines."
Eagan-based Northwest insists that while its costs for outsourced maintenance are lower than they are for in-house maintenance, quality, safety and security are not compromised. No U.S. carrier does all of its aircraft maintenance in-house, and many send much more work to outside vendors than Northwest does, the airline has said.
The mechanics' concerns resonated with at least some of the passengers who lingered outside the airport's main terminal Friday.
"I think they're right on the money," said Jason Garson of Cleveland. "Anything involving the maintenance or security of a domestic airline should be done domestically, unless they meet the same security standards we have in the U.S."
Art Stursberg, a union carpenter from New York, had similar views. "What will it take?" he said. "A couple of planes taking a dive? They're trying to bust the union. You see this all over the place."
Mark Natzel of Glencoe, Minn., said he doesn't assume planes maintained by outside vendors are unsafe but the Northwest mechanics raise concerns that warrant attention. For him, the jobs argument hit home more.
"If we outsource it, it doesn't do much for our economy," he said.
Yet others were more skeptical. Rayna Brandt of Wausau, Wis., said she figures proper checks are in place to ensure planes are well-maintained and secure even when outside vendors work on them.
"With all the security here, I'm not that concerned about it," she said.
Dave Green of Kansas City said the mechanics must recognize the intense competitive pressures Northwest faces to cut costs.
"Northwest is competing with some pretty tough airlines, and Northwest owes it to shareholders to keep costs down," he said. "If it doesn't, the other airlines will run it out of business."
The mechanics' contract with Northwest limits the airline to spending 38 percent of maintenance labor dollars with outside vendors, and it will likely bump up against that limit this year, Atkinson said.
The airline has signaled that it would like to negotiate the right to raise the ceiling to about 48 percent, he added.
Northwest has said it hires vendors for about 25 percent of the heavy maintenance work on its planes. And about half of its outsourced maintenance work is done in Asia. Note other sources says this number is higher!
The airline, which has lost about $2.1 billion on its operations since the start of 2001, has deemed the outsourcing of aircraft maintenance a "competitive tool" in its drive to regain profitability.
Like I said this was a complete flop!!! Look at what TWU did when the bases were threatened to be closed!!!! It is obvious the difference in representation! Dont be fooled by the lies and deception Amfa is famous for!!!!
A complete flop? What is the purpose of an informational picket? To get information out, and if possible media coverage. Did it accomplish that? Obviuosly since you are cutting anbd pasting a news article.
Tell us what did the TWU do to save the bases, except cut everyones pay and benifits and then beg the company not to do it because it would get more cards for AMFA?
You left out the fact that AA spends more on outsourcing than any other airline. In fact AA's outsourcing budget exceeds the entire maintenance budget of several airlines!
So thanks to the TWU AA enjoys the benifit of the lowest in house costs plus the flexibility to contract out up to 50% of the work. They have not approached that 50% mark because they cant find anyplace to do it cheaper! So why do we need the TWU? Why do we need to fork over two hours pay per month for a union that gets us the worst benifits and the lowest pay? Couldnt we get what the TWU gets us without a union?
Tell us what did the TWU do to save the bases, except cut everyones pay and benifits and then beg the company not to do it because it would get more cards for AMFA?
You left out the fact that AA spends more on outsourcing than any other airline. In fact AA's outsourcing budget exceeds the entire maintenance budget of several airlines!
So thanks to the TWU AA enjoys the benifit of the lowest in house costs plus the flexibility to contract out up to 50% of the work. They have not approached that 50% mark because they cant find anyplace to do it cheaper! So why do we need the TWU? Why do we need to fork over two hours pay per month for a union that gets us the worst benifits and the lowest pay? Couldnt we get what the TWU gets us without a union?
- Thread Starter
- #27
Bob, AA is the largest Airline in the world and No Member is on Layoff due to outsourcing of work.
Bob, when was the last time you made the local aware of a part which had a serviceable tag from a third party vendor when you know the part was normally done in-house?
It takes all of us to police AA to ensure our work is being done in-house! Without the eyes and ears of ALL of us we are doing our fellow TWU Brother or Sister an injustice!!
Bob, when was the last time you made the local aware of a part which had a serviceable tag from a third party vendor when you know the part was normally done in-house?
It takes all of us to police AA to ensure our work is being done in-house! Without the eyes and ears of ALL of us we are doing our fellow TWU Brother or Sister an injustice!!
- Thread Starter
- #28
Bob, by all apparent information, Amfa did their members an injustice by not organizing a concerted effort to have pickets through out the Amfa system. Like NWA said, other Airlines Amfa represents farms out more work!!!! The showing of 100 people only showed NWA that they have the control!!!!!!
If there is any work outsourced, at any airline, then someone is laid off.
CIO do not make such a blatantly stupid remark!
- Thread Starter
- #30
Buck are you working with the RO committee to ensure the parts your having your crew install is being done in-house? Or are you just complaining?
The comment was intended to show NW and United amfa represented employees are on layoff due to the outsource of work! What is it? 11,000 thousand positions lost and counting?
The comment was intended to show NW and United amfa represented employees are on layoff due to the outsource of work! What is it? 11,000 thousand positions lost and counting?
