Not SouthWest Again...

Zephyr

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Feb 11, 2003
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I know we have all tired of the comparisons of the US Airways operations to those of SouthWest.
For a change, I would like to hear what the employee pay is now in comparison to SouthWest. I have heard that US Air employee costs are now LESS than SouthWest.
What do the employees say? Are your hourly pay rates less now after all the givebacks?
 

mrplanes

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Sep 17, 2002
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Zeph:

The comparison of our pay vs. LUV is as foolish as comparing our operation to theirs. While our illustrious management enjoys those comparisons for the purposes of constantly driving down our pay and work rules any comparison is silly. Why?

Simply because their operation is vastly different. I hear about how they need no RJ's so neither should we. Well, their entire fleet can be considered RJ's. They run point to point and we hub. We wouldn't need RJ' either if we ran point to point.

The tired and worn out hubbing (oringinal FedEx idea with boxes) has outgrown it's usefulness and the public understands it. At least the public that wants to pay 150 bucks to go anywhere in the country. Our management doens't quite get it so they are sticking with the hubbing and using RJ's as a competitive tool against LUV and Jetblue. They refuse to shift or copy their successful models and instead continue to beat the hub and spoke hoping things will get back to the "old" days, this time with labor costs much lower. Can it work? Your guess is as good as mine but with management refusing to adapt to a new paradigm I doubt it.

Southwest is not eating our lunch because of lower wages. They are doing so because they have a management that knows how to run an airline. We don't.

mr
 

Hope777

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Aug 19, 2002
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Look at the airport SWA flies into. We fly into more major airports which increases costs. Landing fees high where we fly. Just land and A319 in the NYC area and you pay the Port over a $1000 in just landing fees, then add on the rent. It all adds up.
 

REACC1

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Aug 20, 2002
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I am of the belief that WN prospered BECAUSE of the big carriers and their pricing, not in spite of.
If you can find a way around a high fare, with minimal inconvenience, wouldnt you do it?
Someone was just sitting on the sidelines watching it happen and whining about it, when they should have been involved in the competitive reality.
 
OP
Z

Zephyr

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Feb 11, 2003
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Seriously, I am not at all interested in any comparison except what your "new" W-2 now looks like in comparison to SoutWest And Airtran.

This is not a question of how to figure out US Air problems. I is a question of whether or not US Air has, for all intents and purposes, ceased to be a "mainline" carrier in pay and benefits.
 
OP
Z

Zephyr

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Feb 11, 2003
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Seriously, I am not at all interested in any comparison except what your "new" W-2 now looks like in comparison to SoutWest And Airtran.

This is not a question of how to figure out US Air problems. I is a question of whether or not US Air has, for all intents and purposes, ceased to be a "mainline" carrier in pay and benefits.
 

Tim Nelson

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Jan 5, 2003
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/28/2003 9:45:14 AM Zephyr wrote:

Seriously, I am not at all interested in any comparison except what your "new" W-2 now looks like in comparison to SoutWest And Airtran.

This is not a question of how to figure out US Air problems. I is a question of whether or not US Air has, for all intents and purposes, ceased to be a "mainline" carrier in pay and benefits.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Actually we have a classification that allows a top out of $13 bucks an hour which is significantly less than what Continental express pays at top out, or some of the United Express carriers like Air Wisconsin who top out at over $19.

Actually before our last cut SWA fleet service still made more than our IAM contract allowed. You can view the SWA contracts online, at least the mechanics [amfa since IBT booted], and fleet & F/A[TWU]

A quick look at the fleet service comparison:

US AIRWAYS IAM: allows up to 35% P/T, presently 30%.

SWA TWU: it was 15% but I have heard the real numbers are actually lower.

US AIRWAYS IAM: Pay $19.49 plus an additional 5% cut if there is a war, shift differ .26 cents I think, give or take a penny
SWA TWU: $21.00 hour, plus .51 cents plus another .35 cents for ops function.

US AIRWAYS IAM: pay in 2004 will still be $19.49 unless there is a war that would knock out another 5%.

SWA TWU: $23 something.

US AIRWAYS IAM: Pension program is pretty sad indeed. Company just contibutes a small % into the IAM pension plan. I think it is 5%.

SWA TWU: 401k match $1 for $1 up to I believe $7,500 per year now.

US AIRWAYS is bankrupt but it was never because of fleet service labor cost. Before we entered bankruptcy the SWA contract had some real employee benefit advantages over the US AIRWAYS IAM contract.

At any rate, I suggest that instead of our management comparing itself to United management[which has some of the highest and most scandalous compensation packages], that it compare itself and its cost to the entire management cost of SWA. Then we will see in relation how deep that rabbit hole goes.

Tim Nelson
IAM LC 1487
 

REACC1

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Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/28/2003 9:45:14 AM Zephyr wrote:

Seriously, I am not at all interested in any comparison except what your "new" W-2 now looks like in comparison to SoutWest And Airtran.

This is not a question of how to figure out US Air problems. I is a question of whether or not US Air has, for all intents and purposes, ceased to be a "mainline" carrier in pay and benefits.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Oh, in that case, yup, they're done.
I have no idea what Airtran pays, however, WN has got us whooped in pay and bennies too.
 

Hope777

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Aug 19, 2002
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There is something that AirTran does that is good for the agents. Upgrades to Business Class are $35.00 per segment, if the agent sells you an upgrade they earn $2.50 for themselves. It adds up, I know agents bringing home an extra $150 per month. I also think they get something on excess baggage as well as earning $2.50 for catching the change fees.
 

Tim Nelson

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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/28/2003 12:44:36 PM LavMan wrote:

Tim your pension info is wrong, you got over $70 as your qualifier, higher then the DBP that the mechanics have.

http://www.machinists1725.org/Pension.htm
----------------
[/blockquote]


Lavman, I don't have it wrong. First, the IAM pension plan was a $47 million dollar concession for fleet service. It was not an increased benefit, for me the employee.

In the context of my statement, it is less than what fleet service had and less than Southwest's cost for a SWA agent.

Check this out, the contribution rate is less than even non-contract personnel at US AIRWAYS [visit the hub]!
I don't know for sure what a mechanic gets so you might also be right, BTW does a mechanic still get a 401k match? I know their pension fell way behind the industry with the NW and UA mechanic pension benefit increases.

But for me personally, by contract, US AIRWAYS contribution rate is exactly 50% less to my retirement than before this IAM pension deal was crafted by our negotiators.

Tim Nelson
IAMLC 1487
 

PHL

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]

I know we have all tired of the comparisons of the US Airways operations to those of SouthWest.

For a change, I would like to hear what the employee pay is now in comparison to SouthWest. I have heard that US Air employee costs are now LESS than SouthWest.

What do the employees say? Are your hourly pay rates less now after all the givebacks?

[/blockquote]

Their employee workforce is more productive. Example - I don't have the number handy, but someone does(because it was posted). Their ratio of mechs to planes is much lower than US'. There are many models to measure employee productivity, and SW has US and all the majors beat in most of those metrics.
 

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/28/2003 9:44:23 AM Zephyr wrote:

Seriously, I am not at all interested in any comparison except what your "new" W-2 now looks like in comparison to SoutWest And Airtran.

This is not a question of how to figure out US Air problems. I is a question of whether or not US Air has, for all intents and purposes, ceased to be a "mainline" carrier in pay and benefits.
----------------
[/blockquote]

We here at U have given severe wage/benefit concessions in order to subsidize a "low cost carrier" within mainline, which in turn will create an even LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING FOR THOSE WHO WORK FOR THIS CARRIER.

Yes, we saved an airline all right...

As a Union we created jobs (good); conversely, as a Union we created NON livable wages (bad).

Yes indeedy, it will provide employment, which for most employees will probably have to be in conjunction with yet another job in order to survive.

Hey, it was not in vein though, one group will reap nicely. The senior execs, who starting in 2005, (management JUST NOW extended that), will receive the bonus and perk compensation that our sacrifices will have provided.

PS. FACT: LUV f/as duty day is shorter than hours, and their hourly top-out rate was higher than U's even BEFORE the first round of concessions.
 

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