Another thing Bob, on the first page, you compared the complexity between one of US Airways' most restricted fares and Southwest's full fare. I'm not saying that US has simple rules or anything, but apples to apples would be helpful.
On The Whole, They'd Rather Fly From Philadelphia
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Actually, the answer is Independence Air. It is all in the presentation of the rules. Travelocity and most airlines pull their rules from the GDS, and this is how they are presented in full format.PineyBob said:
They can certainly simplify them, but as you can see, even FlyI is tough to understand in that format. You won't see this presentation change because airlines don't have enough money to invest in a better system. US can load the data to present it in a simpler way, but the full rules display will not change for years, if ever. Its built on decades of complicated pricing rules from IATA that can't be blown up and started over very easily.
I'm not sure that your analysis is right here. Perhaps WN sells more $600 fares than US does if you take that statement literally. But US has a significantly higher yield that WN does. It must be getting those dollar somewhere -- and I doubt that the small number of paying F customers are enough to make much of a difference. Costs are the big difference between the airlines.PineyBob said:
Back to the point of duping customers, I would gladly stick with any legacy that kept by last minute fares at $600 max. I also wouldn't mind that I might occasionally be paying more than what another airline is offering. But when I get transcon fares of $1200-1500, I considering that duping. Fortunately for me, I fly out of IAD and JetBlue has kept fares low as UA matches them religiously. But without JetBlue, I'd be paying 2-3 times what I do now. That's duping.
usairways_vote_NO
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TechBoy said:
No thats trying to stay in business and keep out of Chapter 7 or 11. A legacy is not a LCC. And because of that there will be less Legacy and more LCC in future.
Better learn to like LCC more coming to town near you soon.
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TechBoy said:
I guess it depends on one's definition of "significant". WN's 4th qtr yield was 12.08 cents, while U's mainline was 11.90 cents and system was 13.42 cents.
As to where U gets the higher system yield, just look at a map of WN cities in U's "core market". From RDU you go north along the coast thru ORF, BWI, PHL, ISP, PVD, MHT then west across upstate NY to CLE then south thru CMH, IND, BNA, MGM, and then east to JAX. There's a lot of cities inside that rough rectangle that aren't within a convenient drive of LCC service. Folks there pay more of Bob's "BloFares" than they do GoFares.
Or they've had to in the past. Between WN's expansion, Indy Air, and DAL's Simplifares, those folks have lower fares available more and more.
Jim
Yes it can.
It means you have more training costs, more inventory costs as you have to carry more spare parts and more ground equipment costs to handle the differant types of planes. Heavier planes cost more to land and then there is ETOPS costs and higher maintenance costs.
It means you have more training costs, more inventory costs as you have to carry more spare parts and more ground equipment costs to handle the differant types of planes. Heavier planes cost more to land and then there is ETOPS costs and higher maintenance costs.
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PineyBob said:
Bob,
To expound on 700UW's reply a little bit.....
Like most everything in life, the answer is "It depends". As a pure "out of thin air" guess, you can probably figure 10% higher CASM for an efficient hub/spoke, mixed fleet (say 3-5 fleet types), network mainline carrier (express adds CASM) over an efficient WN type operation - if all else is equal. So depending on the amount of loss, that could be the difference.
Airlines traditionally operate on razor thin margins. To illustrate, again look at WN since they provide all the numbers necessary. They operated 981,591 flights in 4Q04 and their passengers paid an average fare of $88.57. They reported a $56 million net profit. One less passenger per flight would have subtracted $86,939,514.87 from the bottom line. One less passenger per flight would have meant a net loss of over $30 million.
Of course, all else is never equal. In our case, almost everything else is unequal - and none of the inequalities are in our favor. Our 4Q04 mainline CASM was roughly 50% higher than WN - that is most definitely the difference between profit & loss.
Jim
usairways_vote_NO
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Jim,
You used $56 million net income which was correct for 4Q04
But you used 981,591 flights and $88.57 avg fare which were numbers for full year 04 not 4Q04
The correct numbers for 4Q04 would be 251,755 flights and $89.59 avg fare.
So your number would be $22,554,730.45 less for one less passenger per flight instead of $86,939,514.87 for 4Q04
$86,939,514.87 less per passenger per flight would work for full year 04 off a full year net income of $313 million.
You used $56 million net income which was correct for 4Q04
But you used 981,591 flights and $88.57 avg fare which were numbers for full year 04 not 4Q04
The correct numbers for 4Q04 would be 251,755 flights and $89.59 avg fare.
So your number would be $22,554,730.45 less for one less passenger per flight instead of $86,939,514.87 for 4Q04
$86,939,514.87 less per passenger per flight would work for full year 04 off a full year net income of $313 million.
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PineyBob said:
You're welcome.
BoeingBoy
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usairways_vote_NO said:
uvn,
You are very correct - I screwed up. 😳
Thanks for the correction. Using the correct data it would take 3 less passengers per flight to change the 4Q04 profit to a loss. Or 4 less for the full year.
Jim
