Paging Mr. Kirkpatrick! Mr. Kirkpatrick, please answer your page.

[jimntx]

It seems that the company has decided to post only the retirements on their new and improved retirement page on the website. No more total attrition numbers. (I guess they were just too embarrassing.)

MK, you are going to have to provide us with the totals from now on. Unfortunately, we won't have the breakdown of Dom vs. International, or the average seniority, unless you can provide it. Also, we will only know the names of those who retired who allow their names to be posted on the website; so, the numbers will not be exact.

By the way, they finally gave some information that cleared up a lot of questions. The names in the retirement list are from the previous month--i.e., retirements posted as August retirements actually occurred in July.

So, while we are on the subject, what was the July attrition?

 

[kirkpatrick]

So, while we are on the subject, what was the July attrition?

Sorry, I got involved with all the hoopla leading up to the recall and have been on the phone for about a week now. July attrition was 48, with 11 more TWA people choosing retirement off the furlough list. This means 177 have attritted in May, June and July, so there are fewer people on the line than before the recall.

I'm guessing somewhere near 325 will go through training and start flying in Nov and Dec, and if attrition continues at 52 per month (the average for the first seven months of 2007) AA will have lost more people than have returned. Look for more recalls to follow the holidays.

MK

 

[jimntx]

Look for more recalls to follow the holidays.
MK

I agree. I would not be surprised if there is another recall BEFORE the holidays. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think all or almost all of the remaining furloughees will be offered recall before July of next year.

Between Sen. McCaskill's bill and the fact that AMR will be going into negotiations with APFA next year, I think they are beginning to realize that they will not be able to win in the Court of Public Opinion if they allow the rest to lose recall rights.

However, I also agree with Nancy that APFA needs to "try the case in the media" so to speak. The company is quite adept at manipulating the media. We need to develop those skills as well. Just keep hammering the message in that AMR is allowing 1600 highly-skilled professionals to fall by the wayside by crying poormouth and awarding multi-million dollar bonusses at the same time. And, all of this while sitting on $6.5 billion in cash!!!!!

At some point, even the American Idol loving public will catch on to hypocrisy of the company's message.

 

[eolesen]

Just keep hammering the message in that AMR is allowing 1600 highly-skilled professionals to fall by the wayside by crying poormouth and awarding multi-million dollar bonusses at the same time. And, all of this while sitting on $6.5 billion in cash!!!!!

At some point, even the American Idol loving public will catch on to hypocrisy of the company's message.

I doubt it, Jim. As bad as things have been in the airline industry, go take a look at the housing industry. They're on target to lose more workers this year alone than the airlines did over the three years after 9/11.

It's estimated that there have been about 87,000 job cuts this year related to the collapse of the housing market, with over 35,000 people being directly affected by the meltdown in the mortgage industry. That doesn't even start to consider the hundreds of thousands of people who will now not be able to refinance loans they never should have been approved for in the first place, and will face almost certain foreclosure. Home foreclosure filings in July were 93 percent higher than a year ago, and up 9 percent from June, to almost 180,000.

Yet, the executives at a lot of the financial service companies (i.e. Capitol One, Bear Stearns, First Magnus, American Home Mortgage, Countrywide) will no doubt keep their mansions, vacation condos, bonuses, private jets, etc. while their former workers are flipping burgers at the local In-N-Out or manning the drive thru at Krispy Kreme.

So, forgive me for thinking such horrible thoughts, but the plight of 1600 flight attendants laid off three or four years ago probably won't be front page news anywhere else except St. Louis and perhaps Long Island....

 

[nbmcg01]

I doubt it, Jim. As bad as things have been in the airline industry, go take a look at the housing industry. They're on target to lose more workers this year alone than the airlines did over the three years after 9/11.

It's estimated that there have been about 87,000 job cuts this year related to the collapse of the housing market, with over 35,000 people being directly affected by the meltdown in the mortgage industry. That doesn't even start to consider the hundreds of thousands of people who will now not be able to refinance loans they never should have been approved for in the first place, and will face almost certain foreclosure. Home foreclosure filings in July were 93 percent higher than a year ago, and up 9 percent from June, to almost 180,000.

Yet, the executives at a lot of the financial service companies (i.e. Capitol One, Bear Stearns, First Magnus, American Home Mortgage, Countrywide) will no doubt keep their mansions, vacation condos, bonuses, private jets, etc. while their former workers are flipping burgers at the local In-N-Out or manning the drive thru at Krispy Kreme.

So, forgive me for thinking such horrible thoughts, but the plight of 1600 flight attendants laid off three or four years ago probably won't be front page news anywhere else except St. Louis and perhaps Long Island....

The furloughed have been very effective in getting press coverage. If you give up on things you feel need to be "righted" that easily, nothing will ever change. Sometimes you have to challenge the status quo so that when all is said and done you can look yourself in the mirror and say, "I've done eveything I could and didn't just sit back and accept what I know to be wrong."

 

[ozcobber]

So, forgive me for thinking such horrible thoughts, but the plight of 1600 flight attendants laid off three or four years ago probably won't be front page news anywhere else except St. Louis and perhaps Long Island....

However, even just one person can make a difference....Rosa Parks.

 

[s80dude]

Actually, the new roster still lists the retirements.... just do a search by year and list ALL for month and it lists them in monthly order.

 

[jimntx]

Actually, the new roster still lists the retirements.... just do a search by year and list ALL for month and it lists them in monthly order.

No, it only lists the retired f/as who have given their permission for their names to be published on the website.

The actual names were never my point. The numbers were my point. When they were posting the old way, you got to see the total attrition, and you could calculate how many had quit/got fired/etc by subtracting the retirement number from the total attrition. Now, you can see only a "permitted" subset of the retirements, and you have to count those manually to determine how many retired in a given month.

 

[nbmcg01]

No, it only lists the retired f/as who have given their permission for their names to be published on the website.

The actual names were never my point. The numbers were my point. When they were posting the old way, you got to see the total attrition, and you could calculate how many had quit/got fired/etc by subtracting the retirement number from the total attrition. Now, you can see only a "permitted" subset of the retirements, and you have to count those manually to determine how many retired in a given month.

They probably don't like being reminded that attrition is WAY ahead of recall.

 

[s80dude]

No, it only lists the retired f/as who have given their permission for their names to be published on the website.

The actual names were never my point. The numbers were my point. When they were posting the old way, you got to see the total attrition, and you could calculate how many had quit/got fired/etc by subtracting the retirement number from the total attrition. Now, you can see only a "permitted" subset of the retirements, and you have to count those manually to determine how many retired in a given month.

oh, I see.... we don't see the non-retirement numbers now (deaths, firings, resignations) like we used to....
yeah, that leaves out a lot of information. I am sure if we write to the Jetnet webmaster, he will correct it right away!

 

[jimntx]

oh, I see.... we don't see the non-retirement numbers now (deaths, firings, resignations) like we used to....
yeah, that leaves out a lot of information. I am sure if we write to the Jetnet webmaster, he will correct it right away!

I did. His response was all about how wonderful the new list is. He also stated that the rest of the information was available on another computer system. (Of course, the fact that we don't have access to that system is of no consequence. I replied with a request for information as to how we could access this system. I got no response.)

Interestingly, he also said that no "permissions" were needed with the new system. If they are posting retiree names without each retiree's permission, it is my opinion that they are violating Federal privacy laws and established corporate policy and procedure. It is no one else's business if I decide to retire unless I tell you that you can announce that fact.

 

[eolesen]

If it's posting this on Jetnet (which is only accessable by company employees), why would there be a privacy issue? I don't see letting other people inside the company knowing that a separation (voluntary or involuntary) or death took place as being a federal privacy issue. Letting someone know -why- they left would be...

 

[jimntx]

If it's posting this on Jetnet (which is only accessable by company employees), why would there be a privacy issue? I don't see letting other people inside the company knowing that a separation (voluntary or involuntary) or death took place as being a federal privacy issue. Letting someone know -why- they left would be...

Telling anyone without a "need to know" about personal employee decisions--such as, retirement, reason for a LOA, nature of an illness,etc--is a violation of Federal privacy laws. In fact, today most companies will not even give you a reference on a former employee beyond "Eolesen was employed here from 01/01/1950 until 01/01/2010" (must have been a flight attendant ).
They might or might not say "He left our employ in good standing, and is eligible for re-hire."

 

[eolesen]

Agree on all of the above, but I don't think it a privacy violation to say "E Olesen left the company in June 2006." It doesn't say I was fired, I quit, I retired, or I died. It simply states the fact that I'm no longer employed.

And yes, all that you'll get out of HR is whether or not the person was employed for the date range inquired about. Unless otherwise superceded by federal law (i.e. with pilots IIRC), I'm fairly certain that they won't say if they are eligible for reinstatement or left in good standing. Some companies still do. Most won't.

 

[jimntx]

Agree on all of the above, but I don't think it a privacy violation to say "E Olesen left the company in June 2006." It doesn't say I was fired, I quit, I retired, or I died. It simply states the fact that I'm no longer employed.

That's the point. The list is entitled 'Retirements.' The only names on the list are people who have retired.