PBS Pres. AFA 66- AFA topic 1/8- Read post 1

[Furloughd4now]

If this is part of the "JNC" Why isn't there representation/participation/Invitations from/for the East? Isn't that was Joint Negotiations mean? :blink:

Preferential Bidding System (PBS) Awareness Presentation

AFA Council 66 invites you to join the Joint Negotiating
Committee to attend a PBS presentation on January 22nd at 1pm.
The negotiating team would like to involve our members and ask
your help in providing feedback and discussion on the potential
PBS process. This is the second presentation offered by Advanced
Optimization Systems, Inc. (AOS) for our members. AFA will
continue to offer these presentations throughout the year. In
September of 2008, the Joint Negotiating Committee and AFA
Council 66 Scheduling Chairperson, Jane Flinn, interviewed four
PBS vendors.

AOS has agreed to provide a live remote presentation. You will
have the opportunity to ask questions of the developers and
programmers of the system. The Council 66 negotiating team will
also be available for any questions, issues, or concerns.

We look forward to seeing you!

I know PBS was to be imlemented quite some time ago, but nixed (like so many other things).


Moderator note:
Lets just make this the AFA topic. Post ALL AFA issues here & do NOT start any other AFA threads.

 

[FlightChic]

I want to know why PBS is in our East contract but never implemented like it was supposed to be? AFA says the company won't agree to use the type of system that the union wants. This is total BS and I want to know why it was never implemented. Maybe because the BHs wouldn't have their 8 chances to change around their schedule at the expense of the reserves? Because with PBS they might actually have to fly their line? Boo hoo! Another thing AFA recently told me was that it would actually cause "layoffs" because they would need fewer f/as. I guess that is because the company would have to utilize the f/as they have and BHs would have to fly their blocks and there wouldn't be hundreds of reserves sitting all month and only flying 40 hours. Good luck with the whole PBS thing. I won't believe it until I see it. I'm sure MF and friends will figure out some type of twisted PBS system that will only benefit their senior mama friends and screw the rest of us. That's how things have always been done and always will be done. I hope the AFA West has better intentions and cares more for their members than the East AFA.

If they do in fact implement PBS in the next contract, will reserves be able to bid for the off days that they need instead of hoping and praying there is a line with days off on all of the days off that they need? If we can, what are the parameters? For example, I need Wed. and Thursdays off. Whoever is creating our lines comes up with these strange haphazard combinations with no rhyme or reason where you are off Sun-Mon-Tues one week then Mon-Tues-Wed-Thurs another, then Wed-Thurs another week and then Thurs-Fri or some other nonsense. There may be one or two lines if I am lucky with all Wednesdays and Thursdays and maybe one or two with 3 W-Th and the other week M-T or T-W. Then you're scrambling to find people to switch with you and of course scheduling won't ever do me any favors by switching my days off even if there is coverage so unless you take a personal day or find someone to switch with you, you are screwed. I don't know what I will do when I need Tuesdays and Thursdays off. I guess I should just forget about it because it's not even remotely possible for an East reserve to get Tuesdays and Thursdays off each week. Thanks for listening to my rants.

Westies - wake up and pay attention! You better watch out or you too will be 15-20 year reserves like some of the Easties! I know Easties who have been straight reserves for 11+ years and no end in sight. I just flew with a f/a on New Years who has been here 21 years and this was his first year having Christmas off. That's how things roll on the East side. 20 years is nothing on the East side. Be wise and vote carefully when that day comes! I just hope the West members of the JNC have your best interests at heart because the East certainly does not!

Another question, how come the East AFA hasn't mentioned much or asked for our input regarding PBS? We did do a survey about what we would like to see in the contract and while many people wrote the same thing it was basically ignored unless it helped the senior BHs.

 

[safety stud]

PBS and the "New Reserve System" were negotiatied together. One was supposed to complement the other. However, our COB at the time only allowed the parameters that were established by the amount of pilot lines per month/per bidding period. Thus, it would have been futile for the company to provide PBS if the paramaters were so constricted. What you should be looking at in this email is that AFA will now be looking to seperate from the pilots, should PBS take place. This is the only way PBS can work, should AFA give up the present east system and go to PBS with negotiated paramiters. Let's just wait and see how things play out here....

I really don't think PBS is a bad thing, unless AFA doesnt' get quality paramiters in place to make it work to the advantage of the F/A's. With PBS, you could sked yourself much easier, and not 2 months in advance like the present east system. Sounds like change is a commin...

Just my opinion...

 

[Zarah]

"The Company proposal includes something called "Available for Time" or AT days."

Uhh, no.

 

[LCC_#1]

I want to know why PBS is in our East contract but never implemented like it was supposed to be? AFA says the company won't agree to use the type of system that the union wants. This is total BS and I want to know why it was never implemented. Maybe because the BHs wouldn't have their 8 chances to change around their schedule at the expense of the reserves? Because with PBS they might actually have to fly their line? Boo hoo!

Actually, the contracts states that if the company and the AFA could not come up with a proper software, PBS would not be implemented. The company wanted the cheapest, most UNRELIABLE software offered. The system the company wanted breached seniority left and right, up and down. Simply, the company was NOT committed to spending money for the RIGHT system. As usual, they wanted to do it n the cheap! As much as many of you constantly want to hate on AFA, they had your back on this one.

 

[Quickcall]

Actually, the contracts states that if the company and the AFA could not come up with a proper software, PBS would not be implemented. The company wanted the cheapest, most UNRELIABLE software offered. The system the company wanted breached seniority left and right, up and down. Simply, the company was NOT committed to spending money for the RIGHT system. As usual, they wanted to do it n the cheap! As much as many of you constantly want to hate on AFA, they had your back on this one.

Would the breached seniority left and right, up and down, be similar to the LTO reserve systerm? The company continues to get away with that.

 

[NoMoreKoolAid]

I'm a little rusty or out of the reserve loop with my 19 years but my best friends are rsv. What do you think seniority is good for? I mean where does it stop and what is too much? Seems like everyone sits on catcrew and stalks each other all day. I asked my neighbor a UAL gal and she said the computer assigns them or releases them. All pure math and legalities. No one is in everyone's business and I know American and Delta don't use seniority on rsv. So I am just wondering what we want here. Seems like we have created quite the monster with such distrust everyone has to stalk each other and monitor the company at every moment. If they computerized it maybe we could have a better life on rsv. Trust me it could be me again soon but I would rather just get a trip and get out of dodge.

 

[LCC_#1]

Would the breached seniority left and right, up and down, be similar to the LTO reserve systerm? The company continues to get away with that.

Probably. Unfortunately, the RSV system was not attached to PBS.

 

[Quickcall]

I'm a little rusty or out of the reserve loop with my 19 years but my best friends are rsv. What do you think seniority is good for? I mean where does it stop and what is too much? Seems like everyone sits on catcrew and stalks each other all day. I asked my neighbor a UAL gal and she said the computer assigns them or releases them. All pure math and legalities. No one is in everyone's business and I know American and Delta don't use seniority on rsv. So I am just wondering what we want here. Seems like we have created quite the monster with such distrust everyone has to stalk each other and monitor the company at every moment. If they computerized it maybe we could have a better life on rsv. Trust me it could be me again soon but I would rather just get a trip and get out of dodge.

Lucky you. You must not be based in PHL or you would be on reserve this month. You're right about your observation about stalking catcrew. Those of us who never get off reserve have found that if you don't watch you'll be passed over, not given a choice when a choice is available and pretty much any other issue that a blockholder would have a fit about. Of course, on reserve, :unsure: since there is no seniority, we have to watch our LTO. I think if you gave it a try you would find yourself p***ed off too after watching junior people getting much better trips than the one you end up with. LTO had created this monster and add human error to the mix and you have quite a mess. I agree with you and your neighbor from UAL. If we had a computer system that worked properly, there would be no question. Time and again we find errors in assigning trips and are told by a "non-computer" to grieve it. While you're grieving the mistake, you're also flying a trip you shouldn't have had to take. So in answer to your question, "What do I think seniority is good for?" My answer would be fairness-the same way it is to a blockholder. Someone with 25 years has seniority to me and will get better trips than I do. I have ## years and should get better choices than someone who has#* years. Probably when you were last on reserve it was seniority based so you haven't lived this hell. Believe me, if you are unlucky enough to have to be on it for a year you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

[LCC_#1]

^
^
^
More the reason seniority should ALWAYS rule. No matter where you are on the list, that DOH is all you really have. We allowed (with a gun loaded to our head) this new method to permeate our company like a cancer. It is time to cut the cancer out NOW!!!

 

[galley princess]

LTO is a horrendous system, however what people forget about is that it WAS actually voted on. It's just that no one knew what they were voting for. The other thing to remember is that the concessionary agreement was presented to flight attendants without the union sanction or recommendation, that is, the company wanted it brought to the membership, but the union didn't. The company prevailed basically because the sword of Damocles was hanging over our heads.

The membership voted to save their jobs, plain and simple. Were the reserves sold down the river? Probably, but those on property had a vote. In retrospect, how shameful is it that no one, not out of 6000 flight attendants flagged that LTO wasn't tied to PBS as a trigger for implementation? In the final analysis, choosing to stay at US, means consenting to work with LTO. And yes, I have experienced LTO myself, it's misery. It was enough misery for me to acquire another avenue in life.

It's great that the union is communicating with us and giving us this update, but for all intents and purposes it is just an update. They have so much more work to do and from what I have been told by someone who has spoken to a negotiator the simple fact is that the company will not negotiate in good faith. It has always been a situation where the company says "we want reserves at the airport". That's all they say, then AFA has to do the research and write the details, trying to cover any holes that the company may abuse. It's time consuming and requires a lot of skill to try to forestall any creative interpretations by the company.

The real loser in this is WEST, however EAST is not going to take a lousy contract just to get a contract. WEST can look at all of the pretty systems that it wants, but the decision will most likely be based on what EAST will vote for, since that is where the numbers are. EAST has a history of work rules that the WEST never had, so it must be hard for them to understand what we're trying to protect. Demographics is going to play in this and flexibility and money are the two biggest concerns of the most senior, ie blockholders. Blockholders outnumber reserves, so scheduling flexibility will continue to be a priority.

Having said that, I do think that the union is acutely aware that LTO cannot continue. It is too divisive and the misery quotient is way too high. A normal, functional company would be concerned about such a morale breaker and how it affects its bottom line, but well. . .

It's 2009. Our agreement is up in 2011. I am expecting that we get within shouting distance of our agreement being up, and the clock starting to tick. Then it will become a choice situation. After Eight years of an abysmal contract, what's another year for more leverage? I realize that not everyone feels this way, but if you're looking for the bottom line, that's it.

This update is nothing to get excited about. Most of it is theoretical at this point.

 

[NoMoreKoolAid]

The best thing I did was get out of PHL and yes I would be on rsv. I think it's jacked what they do to you guys and I did sit one month on this LTO bs. downright nasty and I let afa know all the time.
That being said I am just wondering if they computerize the entire thing but based on first in and first out/legalities and days avl would it be worth it? I agree it's insane the amount of mistakes and the attitude toward anyone with the "rsv" beside the name not even human. Just to trade that in for more vacation, sick, healthcare and better pay. Get off catcrew and let the computer takeover like all the other airlines. you might not get your choice but it lets you have a life and stops the stalking and being tied to a computer. Why should one group get to pick off the top all month? Everyone here has what 10 years or more no one is newhire rsv was only meant to last 2 or 3 years not this long! That is all im saying. Go read UAL contract. it's clean cut and simple and livable.

 

[FlightChic]

I would be fine if a computer assigned us trips instead of schedulers. At least computers aren't rude.

As reserves with the way the system is, you have no choice but to sit on Catcrew when you are on call if you think you will be called. I have been skipped by future at least 5 times. I would notice that they never called me yet there was a ROC by my name. For some strange reason they think I am a LODO or at least that's what they tell me. HAHA yeah right not at my juniority! Or the times when daily skips over me yet offers a trip to someone junior to me. One time I was quick called for a trip and then they cancelled it but scheduling told me I would be next for the next quick call. Yeah right! They skipped over me and called four people senior to me who weren't even on quick call and didn't want the trip and they wouldn't give me the trip even though I was already at the airport. I didn't even know about it until my friend called me all angry because they called him and he was even angrier when he found out they didn't call me and that I was at the airport. I was #1 for being quick called and for daily so either way I should have gotten that trip. Or how about one time when I was only good for one day but legally could have taken a two day if I wanted and a 2 day trip came open and they didn't bother to call me. They had not called me prior so I didn't ROC or anything before. Instead they called the next available person good for a two day. Yet they never forget to call at 6am when there is a 4 day open and I am only good for a 2 day. Or what about the time when scheduling called and said they had a four day for me even though on the screen I saw a three day and they said that wasn't available. Yet after I hung up the phone they called someone junior to me and assigned them the three day. WTF? This has happened a lot. Or what about the time when they tried scheduling me a trip going into my 7th day which was an off day saying I was legal because I had a 24 hour layover on my last trip? I also can't tell you how many times scheduling has tried to assign me OPR in BOS for the next day even though I was only good for two days for the BOS OPR when I was sitting OPR in PHL (and only good for three for PHL OPR). Unfortunately you have to monitor the screen like crazy and call them on their errors, and there are many.

I won't even get into how those late night transatlantic quick calls make me feel...

It's just wrong that many of us are slaves to nasty schedulers and that we aren't allowed to have a life or even get days off that we need and we are strapped to our cell phones and computers and are basically on house/crashpad arrest all the time. To make matters worse, we get screwed by screw scheduling on a daily basis (who are rude and treat us like scum and I know we have rude f/as but I am always so nice to them but they are still rude) and we have a union that doesn't care.

On this reserve system, you have no seniority. Even during times when you should, you still get skipped over and told you can't have a certain available trip for no reason at all which violates our contract. If you haven't experienced the current reserve system then you have no idea what we go through or how we feel. Then by the time you do get assigned a trip you find that you are working with senior BHs who have already worked 120 hours for the month which they do month after month after month and are too tired to work so they do nothing but complain about how much they have been working and how they just spent all afternoon working on bids or how they couldn't drop their last trip for a better one or how they had to touch the weekend or whatever...Meanwhile you're wondering how you're going to pay your bills because you're working 40 hours a month and can't pick up enough ETB because of the 24/6 rule and there are only 5 pages of ETB trips for the whole month.

 

[Furloughd4now]

Such great replies, and My God Magnum, you couldn't be more right on!! However, it is not why I started this post. My question was Why hasn't the East been invited to PBS presentations to be held somewhere out West (btw, no date or location)? PLEASE UNDERSTAND, I AM NOT TRYING TO START AN EAST V WEST THING, BUT, read the original post to get the jist of this...

We now have an update fron AFA East regarding a proposal to the company, which includes, the PBS... (I can post it if no one else does) HOWEVER, IT STATES NOTHING ABOUT A PRESENTATION AND DOES NOT INVITE EAST FAs TO UPCOMNG PRESENTATIONS that are obviously being scheduled by the AFA66 JNC!?!?

AM I missing something here? :blink: If I am, please enlighten me

 

[FlightChic]

Don't post the eline, only a link to it because I posted the eline earlier and it was removed by the mods.

It is strange that the East f/as aren't invited or that there aren't any presentations on the East coast, or at least none that I have been aware of.