Peacepipe

[elixir]

OK, I see that somebody from the West attempted this elsewhere...and it died an ugly death.. much like this carrier will if some paradigms don't shift. Technically, I'm an Eastie...but have worked out "Westie" for several years under a J4J deal with Mesa. What a tragic situation that is. My experience has been quite positive with Westies...know what? We're all pilots, we have reasonably similar skillsets and interests. Thats what I've learned over these years "offline".

I've made some great pals in PHX...we're much more "alike" than not. I urge some of you to find out for yourselves.

 

[freedom]

OK, I see that somebody from the West attempted this elsewhere...and it died an ugly death.. much like this carrier will if some paradigms don't shift. Technically, I'm an Eastie...but have worked out "Westie" for several years under a J4J deal with Mesa. What a tragic situation that is. My experience has been quite positive with Westies...know what? We're all pilots, we have reasonably similar skillsets and interests. Thats what I've learned over these years "offline".

I've made some great pals in PHX...we're much more "alike" than not. I urge some of you to find out for yourselves.

peace between the pilot groups HA! it's more probable the west is merely trying to lure the east pilots into a lull . “shhh shhh there there , we are friends now , so shhh just accept the arbitration now shhhh there there , now that’s a good pilot “ hmm either that or the west is truly afraid of decertification and hoping that by playing the peace pipe card they can avoid it .

i just don't see the whole "lets be friends" thing as real , Sorry that’s just my outsider opinion .

 

[philly rocks]

Elixir has made some valid points. It would be very nice for harmony between east and west pilot groups. The company pitted all groups against one another. First is was about culture, then it was east v. west, now they call us east metal v. west metal or useast metal v. awa west metal. It is hiliarious. Takes two to tango, lets dance!

 

[missthe727]

Elixir has made some valid points. It would be very nice for harmony between east and west pilot groups.

Ok---here's my perspective....put yourself in any East pilots shoes who is way SR. to a west guy but according to the new award has now lost 15 years seniority and is below some guy hired 3 years ago. Would you be feeling very harmonious and be able to put it aside so we could "all get along" ???

As an F/A, I know I wouldn't be able to.

 

[767jetz]

Ok---here's my perspective....put yourself in any East pilots shoes who is way SR. to a west guy but according to the new award has now lost 15 years seniority and is below some guy hired 3 years ago. Would you be feeling very harmonious and be able to put it aside so we could "all get along" ???

As an F/A, I know I wouldn't be able to.

AS an F/A you probably look at seniority differently. Your seniority determines the types of trips you fly. Probably the longer international trips go senior. With all F/A's cross trained an all equipment, DOH integration is much simpler.

What you must understand with regard to pilot seniority is that it determines which airplane you fly as well as which seat you occupy, with significantly different pay scales attached to each. And we're not talking an few dollars an hour here. So while an East pilot has more years at his respective airline before the merger, he doesn't have more seniority if he is flying the same seat and type of AC. The East pilot's current and future earnings potential was significantly less even though he had many more years at his company. This is the crux of the problem. There is a large disparity between age/years of service, and what each pilot brings to the merger in terms of seat/fleet and money.

While I agree that the West should put themselves in the East's shoes, the East must also walk in the West's shoes. Something they have been unwilling to do. How do you think a 7 year West captain would feel, who was earning significantly more money than an 18 year East F/O (let's say $50,000 more per year) suddenly have that F/O leap frog over him? How about a 5 year West F/O who was looking forward to his upgrade and $30,000 raise just before the merger, now being leap frogged by a 18 year East pilot who was earning significantly less just last year, and now will see that raise evaporate for another 5 or even 10 years because of the age 60 rule changing to age 65? How do you think he would feel?

The West has always said that through the JNC they will work with the East to improve everyone's pay, benefits, work rules and even job protections. This can all be done without re-ordering a list that was awarded by an arbitrator through a process that the East INSISTED on in the first place. Everyone should step away from the emotion that they are currently so tied to, and start looking at this objectively, in dollars and cents.

 

[missthe727]

AS an F/A you probably look at seniority differently. Your seniority determines the types of trips you fly. Probably the longer international trips go senior. With all F/A's cross trained an all equipment, DOH integration is much simpler.

MOD NOTE: ONE MORE TIME: DO NOT QUOTE ENTIRE LENGTHY POSTS IN YOUR REPLIES ESPECIALLY WHEN THE POST YOU ARE COMMENTING ON IS NEAR OR IMMEDIATELY ABOVE YOUR REPLY.......

Thanks so much for the lesson in pilot seniority which I already knew. Bottom line, you cannot justify a guy who was in grade school being put before another who was hired and started paying ALPA dues 15 years earlier. Let's not look at dollars and cents, let's look at years of service. If you look at dollars and cents, let's look at the west guys getting part of the East guys profit sharing. Have the West shared any raises/pay parity with the East ??? that would certainly promote goodwill now wouldn't it ???

 

[LCC_#1]

767, BUTT OUT OF THIS THREAD!!

Sure this forum is open to all, but YOU are NOT an employee and have TOO many times shown your complete DISTAIN for the East pilots. YOUR peacepipe contribution is about as welcomed as a cold. :down: :down:

 

[nycbusdriver]

About the only way I can see out of this mess (in the short term) is to completely rethink the way pilots are compensated.

If the bulk of the hourly pilot pay was based strictly on length of service, with relatively much smaller add-ons for captain seat and international flying, then much of the problem of the pay disparity in question with the Nicolau award would disappear. It may cost the company more money, though, so I won't hold my breath on this idea.

The other problem stems from the long term situation. Even if USAirways used this type of rethinking of the pilot pay, the entire structure may collapse in the event of another merger, which most think highly likely.

The east pilots have found that nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that we have gained from collective bargaining necessarily survives in the long term. And that is where our fear, consternation and anger stem from. Even if a solution is found to make Nicolau palatable from a financial standpoint, it may be gone within a year in the wake of another merger.

So we're pretty much skeptical of anything that comes down the pike, and we've taken to heart the old Nancy Reagan catchphrase: "Just say NO!"

 

[767jetz]

767, BUTT OUT OF THIS THREAD!!

Sure this forum is open to all, but YOU are NOT an employee and have TOO many times shown your complete DISTAIN for the East pilots. YOUR peacepipe contribution is about as welcomed as a cold. :down: :down:

I'll take that under advisement. Your objection in duly noted, Etc. etc...

In the mean time, try engaging in some intellectual exchange.

Sorry if my opinions don't conform to your desires. I guess you'll just have to learn to deal with it. 🙄

 

[Richard]

767, BUTT OUT OF THIS THREAD!!

Sure this forum is open to all, but YOU are NOT an employee and have TOO many times shown your complete DISTAIN for the East pilots. YOUR peacepipe contribution is about as welcomed as a cold. :down: :down:

It is an open forum and everyone regardless of their involvement is entitled to their opinion.

 

[philly rocks]

I think there should be a seperate Usairways Pilot forum on the forum page. We all know there will never be peace with that group and I can't help but saying that most pilots on these threads always try to interfere with their battle on threads not pertaining to the DOH arbitration award hoopala!

Pilot groups should also sympathize with the other labor unions within Usairways to ensure solidarity among all groups instead of always being only out for themselves.

LCC# 1, try taking a toke from the peacepipe and mellow out!

 

[Lunvnsat]

AS an F/A you probably look at seniority differently. Your seniority determines the types of trips you fly. Probably the longer international trips go senior. With all F/A's cross trained an all equipment, DOH integration is much simpler.

What you must understand with regard to pilot seniority is that it determines which airplane you fly as well as which seat you occupy, with significantly different pay scales attached to each. And we're not talking an few dollars an hour here. So while an East pilot has more years at his respective airline before the merger, he doesn't have more seniority if he is flying the same seat and type of AC. The East pilot's current and future earnings potential was significantly less even though he had many more years at his company. This is the crux of the problem. There is a large disparity between age/years of service, and what each pilot brings to the merger in terms of seat/fleet and money.

While I agree that the West should put themselves in the East's shoes, the East must also walk in the West's shoes. Something they have been unwilling to do. How do you think a 7 year West captain would feel, who was earning significantly more money than an 18 year East F/O (let's say $50,000 more per year) suddenly have that F/O leap frog over him? How about a 5 year West F/O who was looking forward to his upgrade and $30,000 raise just before the merger, now being leap frogged by a 18 year East pilot who was earning significantly less just last year, and now will see that raise evaporate for another 5 or even 10 years because of the age 60 rule changing to age 65? How do you think he would feel?

The West has always said that through the JNC they will work with the East to improve everyone's pay, benefits, work rules and even job protections. This can all be done without re-ordering a list that was awarded by an arbitrator through a process that the East INSISTED on in the first place. Everyone should step away from the emotion that they are currently so tied to, and start looking at this objectively, in dollars and cents.

Contrary to what many believe... There are no 7 year Captains at AWA. Nor are there any 5 Year F/O's Upgrading......

Last Captain bid. Most junior upgrade has 10 years "ACTIVE" service.

 

[philly rocks]

Like I said, the pilot group has only one thing on their minds "the pilot group".

 

[Bud8EE]

Contrary to what many believe... There are no 7 year Captains at AWA. Nor are there any 5 Year F/O's Upgrading......

Last Captain bid. Most junior upgrade has 10 years "ACTIVE" service.

It was like the two year Captains at Piedmont in the late 80's or Braniff in 80-81, or a 25 year old DC-10 Captain at Air Florida. Someone should never expect it, it is all subject to growth, retirements, the cycle of the economy, etc., etc. It's like taking one frame out of a motion picture. I have a good friend who spent almost 18 years as an FE at UAL but in his last 15 1/2, went from engineer to senior 777 Captain. To have denied him his career progression in a merger scenario because he was an FE at the time of the merger is as wrong as taking a junior or furloughed pilot at US Airways with 20 years and sticking them behind someone hired 15+ years after them. It's a "I want mine right now" attitude and don't have to earn it mentality. It's either a profession of fellow "union" members of the same craft respecting each others time applied to it or its an "association" of dog eat dog antics, who can twist whose arm the hardest or hope to scam the system reality. Pilots need to decide what kind of profession they want to dedicate their lives to going forward, and I would advise everyone to ask if the profession is better off under the way ALPA has handled things than it was 20 years ago.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I'd say our profession can remain professional as long as pilots are prepared to honor agreements they make. If you can't live with the consequences of your actions, think twice about what you're doing. Ego and arrogance are classic personality traits for most pilots, making us our own worst enemies. You're whole sob story below is raw emotion and biases clouding reality.

It was like the two year Captains at Piedmont in the late 80's or Braniff in 80-81, or a 25 year old DC-10 Captain at Air Florida. Someone should never expect it, it is all subject to growth, retirements, the cycle of the economy, etc., etc. It's like taking one frame out of a motion picture. I have a good friend who spent almost 18 years as an FE at UAL but in his last 15 1/2, went from engineer to senior 777 Captain. To have denied him his career progression in a merger scenario because he was an FE at the time of the merger is as wrong as taking a junior or furloughed pilot at US Airways with 20 years and sticking them behind someone hired 15+ years after them. It's a "I want mine right now" attitude and don't have to earn it mentality. It's either a profession of fellow "union" members of the same craft respecting each others time applied to it or its an "association" of dog eat dog antics, who can twist whose arm the hardest or hope to scam the system reality. Pilots need to decide what kind of profession they want to dedicate their lives to going forward, and I would advise everyone to ask if the profession is better off under the way ALPA has handled things than it was 20 years ago.