Peacepipe

[Bud8EE]

I'd say our profession can remain professional as long as pilots are prepared to honor agreements they make. If you can't live with the consequences of your actions, think twice about what you're doing. Ego and arrogance are classic personality traits for most pilots, making us our own worst enemies. You're whole sob story below is raw emotion and biases clouding reality.

Actually, not my sob story. I am old Hughes AirWest but I am use to it. There are NWA pilots here who were hired months before the Republic Merger at NWA who resent that I am a 74 Captain even though I was hired a decade before them. Hey, If I hadn't aged during that 10 years I was out flying my a$$ off, I would gladly trade them my position for being 10 years younger. They get 10 great years of ALPA and this profession after I am gone, though. I never counted on anything other than I would have 36 years, or 41 if the rule changes and over those years the guys in from of me on the seniority list older than I was would retire and I would move up a number. Only God knows whether that equates to 747, 757, A320, etc., but I never wanted or expected to leap frog anybody who had been at this airline longer in that pursuit.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

It is a brutal industry and a tough career path, that is the reality. Part of the problem is pilots think they OWN their seat and seniority. Pilots are hired to OCCUPY a seat based on an order of the seniority list. Longevity with the Company means nothing outside of pay and some benefits (e.g. SA travel), particularly if you happen to be a non-union employee. Yet, I always here pilots tie the two together (seniority & longevity). Do you think it's fair that long tenured non-union employees at the old DCA HQ were terminated as a result of the merger when less tenured remained employeed in Tempe? It may not be fair, but that is reality in the business world. Utopia we live not.

Actually, not my sob story. I am old Hughes AirWest but I am use to it. There are NWA pilots here who were hired months before the Republic Merger at NWA who resent that I am a 74 Captain even though I was hired a decade before them. Hey, If I hadn't aged during that 10 years I was out flying my a$$ off, I would gladly trade them my position for being 10 years younger. They get 10 great years of ALPA and this profession after I am gone, though. I never counted on anything other than I would have 36 years, or 41 if the rule changes and over those years the guys in from of me on the seniority list older than I was would retire and I would move up a number. Only God knows whether that equates to 747, 757, A320, etc., but I never wanted or expected to leap frog anybody who had been at this airline longer in that pursuit.

 

[rjh]

Ok---here's my perspective....put yourself in any East pilots shoes who is way SR. to a west guy but according to the new award has now lost 15 years seniority and is below some guy hired 3 years ago. Would you be feeling very harmonious and be able to put it aside so we could "all get along" ???

As an F/A, I know I wouldn't be able to.

Sure the east pilots are upset. But dont take it out on the west pilots. .by fighting for what they want, they are only looking out for their interests, just as the east pilots were doing. Take it out on the arbitrator that actually made the decision.

 

[Bud8EE]

Do you think it's fair that long tenured non-union employees at the old DCA HQ were terminated as a result of the merger when less tenured remained employeed in Tempe? It may not be fair, but that is reality in the business world. Utopia we live not.

Actually, I do think its fair because more often than not, that experience translates into $$$ when they move somewhere else and thus they have lateral mobility. Seniority is the evil that holds pilot pay back and allows/pressures/forces people to accept pay and benefit cuts they would not accept otherwise. Since no viable merit based system would work without serious morale issues, the only fix from a union perspective is a national union that respects longevity and a national seniority list.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I agree, that would allow pilots to make lateral moves to other carriers without starting from scratch again. A utopia that likely will never occur. The only time it is ever mentioned (national seniority list) is when a pilot group feels they got hosed during a merger, once every decade or so. I think the merger process ALPA has in place is as good as any. It could be worse, how about the American Airlines seniority integration process? 25-30 years LOS and stapled.

Actually, I do think its fair because more often than not, that experience translates into $$$ when they move somewhere else and thus they have lateral mobility. Seniority is the evil that holds pilot pay back and allows/pressures/forces people to accept pay and benefit cuts they would not accept otherwise. Since no viable merit based system would work without serious morale issues, the only fix from a union perspective is a national union that respects longevity and a national seniority list.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Would the process allow both parties to go back to Nicolau and move to state that the seniority lists submitted were defective because they were not adjusted by contract differences?

Somebody else mentioned something to the effect that if LCC's contract had been adjusted to AWA terms then LCC would have had to recall several hundred pilots. I have no idea if this is true. But, if so, it seems to be a rational basis for reconsideration without risking drastic change to DOH or LOS.

Perhaps both parties could move to adjust the lower set point a few to several hundred LCC pilots lower. This would still not result in any AWA furloughs, but ameliorate some of LCC pilot concerns. With the recent resignations from the LCC furlough list I could see this providing some comfort for LCC pilots remaining.

Honestly, I believe that the only thing wrong with the Nic list is the lower end set point. I'm still stuck on the career expectation of a post 911 new hire. I do think that Nic provided a windfall to those pilots' rational expectations. In any case, Nic was lazy not to realize that the 15 year differential at the bottom of the list was not going to be so politically disruptive that it might result in no joint contract. I think that Nic was primiarily interested in removing the irrational and unrealistic DOH expectations of LCC pilots (which he was right to do) but that he didn't do it well. I think any list that is arbitrated but that is so (rationally or irrationally) unacceptable to one side that they'd never vote a joint contract or decertify the union cant be considered a success.

In any case, I understand the 'we're so crazy' posturing and 'strategic influence' posting that's so popular on this board, but I just cant help but think that if there is a rational basis for recalculating the bottom set point based on a real rational basis of apples to apples might be worth it. It sure wont satisfy the 'apparent' position of the LCC pilots whiny rhetoric, or 'adhere' to the made up ideal of 'honor' from the west a**hole posters. But something like this has got to be better than the path you're laying out for each other.

 

[Bud8EE]

I agree, that would allow pilots to make lateral moves to other carriers without starting from scratch again. A utopia that likely will never occur. The only time it is ever mentioned (national seniority list) is when a pilot group feels they got hosed during a merger, once every decade or so. I think the merger process ALPA has in place is as good as any. It could be worse, how about the American Airlines seniority integration process? 25-30 years LOS and stapled.

What happened at AA/TWA was a travesty and as long as these travesties keep happening, pilots will keep fighting each other for the scraps. No sacrifices will be made to better the profession, because the profession(you and me), never take care of those making the sacrifices. We just sigh and are glad it wasn't us, and delude ourselves into thinking that we are entitled to what we have because we are smarter or made the better career choice in who we got hired by, or worse we are better than the guy working for a screwed up airline because that is the best place he/she could get hired by. It's no wonder we are all going backward and so fast.

 

[TWAFlyer]

Edited by moderator
To remove names & other info which should never be posted.

 

[elixir]

Oh, boy...I sense this topic will expire in the same manner as the other....wow.

Why don't each side sit down and determine exactly what the objections are...is it pay, or bidding...or both? If it is primarily pay, why not revisit the award with some pay remedies attached to the most "hurt" group?...ie the 14 year guys on the East?...but they retain seat and bidding seniority by Nic?...or, vice-versa, if it's schedules...give them schedule remedies without the pay bumps?...Both sides are so willing to go to guns that it's hard to identify exactly where the real issue is. As a 2000 hire date, little of this trickles to me, but as an outsider, all I see is a standoff which will have disasterous results....Parker will open the wallet to fix this....but NOT until you guys ALL decide HOW it can be fixed...usually, money does the trick. Neither of the East/West pilots have the checkbook....Parker does. As for me, I could give 2 $hits about the left seat...sadly, these days I care about $$$$ makes it simpler to resolve from my perspective.

It's like this, you can both fight about it, and both ultimately lose....or, you can reach an understanding that will placate both sides and make Parker pay for the resolution...He won't consider a major move (merger) again under these circumstances...and I'm sure he wants to merge again..."help" him get comfortable....and you will all prosper in the process.

.02

 

[Tiger 1050]

...pilots will keep fighting each other for the scraps. No sacrifices will be made to better the profession, because the profession(you and me), never take care of those making the sacrifices. We just sigh and are glad it wasn't us, and delude ourselves into thinking that we are entitled to what we have because we are smarter or made the better career choice in who we got hired by, or worse we are better than the guy working for a screwed up airline because that is the best place he/she could get hired by. It's no wonder we are all going backward and so fast.

This could not have been said any better...

 

[elixir]

Agreed...and it applies in this case.

 

[oldcrow]

It is a brutal industry and a tough career path, that is the reality. Part of the problem is pilots think they OWN their seat and seniority.

I told my son that just started his 2nd year of college to not go into flying for a living. My advice to him was get a MBA or JD, preferably both and in a few years you'll have enough money to buy your own airplane and fly when you want to. He already has a private and instrument rating.

The glory days of being an airline Captain are over. Remember the old joke about why there was a hump on the front of a 747 ? Remember just a few years ago a widebody Intl. Captain was making $270K+ . But my last statement to him was to follow your passion and do what you enjoy.

My daughter is a lawyer in a large firm and she told me having a binding arbitration over-turned was very very rare. Usually in a case where one side provided false information. In other words a crime was committed. I think Nic is here to stay, if ever gets implemented is another story.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Very good advise! My oldest is in HS and I have done everything possible to convince him a career as a pilot is crap, unless you're a loner and diehard for misery.

I married into a bunch of attorney's and they tell me the same thing...binding is binding, ain't no way out. However, it will probably be a while before it ever gets implemented...years of litigation and millions of dollars later, unfortunately. The only winners in the end will be the attorneys.

I told my son that just started his 2nd year of college to not go into flying for a living. My advice to him was get a MBA or JD, preferably both and in a few years you'll have enough money to buy your own airplane and fly when you want to. He already has a private and instrument rating.

The glory days of being an airline Captain are over. Remember the old joke about why there was a hump on the front of a 747 ? Remember just a few years ago a widebody Intl. Captain was making $270K+ . But my last statement to him was to follow your passion and do what you enjoy.

My daughter is a lawyer in a large firm and she told me having a binding arbitration over-turned was very very rare. Usually in a case where one side provided false information. In other words a crime was committed. I think Nic is here to stay, if ever gets implemented is another story.