Phl Hub Perf

[FWAAA]

The problem with PIT was not that it lacked the population to support a hub. PIT has a significantly greater population than CVG and CLT, yet they can support a hub. The problem is that PIT didn't work as a US hub because it was too close to PHL.

[post="284759"][/post]​

You may be right, but the airlines operating the CVG RJ hub and CLT are bleeding money. One is in Ch 11 and the other is close behind. I'm not as certain as you that either city can really "support" a hub.

The STL metro area is also larger than CVG and CLT (even larger than PIT) yet it couldn't support a successful hub. AA runs an RJ hub there now and WN has actually downsized ops there since the AA pulldown in 2003.

There are far too many hubs in this country, and things won't get better for legacy airlines until more of them close.

Of course, there are other large cities that either don't have hubs like BOS, SAN or SEA or have failed at supporting hubs as well, like CLE.

Recent metro area population data: http://www.demographia.com/db-usmet2003.pdf

 

[JS]

The problem with PIT was not that it lacked the population to support a hub. PIT has a significantly greater population than CVG and CLT, yet they can support a hub. The problem is that PIT didn't work as a US hub because it was too close to PHL.

[post="284759"][/post]​

What difference does that make?

CVG and ATL are 375 miles apart, which isn't all that much more than PIT-PHL at 268 miles.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Returning mainline aircraft, but the potential is that there will be more RJ's.

[post="284761"][/post]​

Good point on the RJ swarm helping to worsen congestion. For instance, in the last three years, several outstations have gone from four 737/A319 type flights to maybe eight babyjets. Sure, more departure times to choose from, but fewer overall seats. Each of those RJ's take just as much ATC handling as its bigger breathen.

(Plus no freight capacity to speak of)

Talked to a supervisor in an outstation in Central NY yesterday. Last week she had to stay late (1AM), awaiting arrival of a truck from PHL delivering BAGS...to boot only about 40 bags...She also commented about the fact that RJ's are showing up with only a few bags and close to full flights...

Put Creelin on it...

[post="284726"][/post]​

A friend in a New England outstation describes a "mini meltdown" of PAWOBs from PHL during this past week. Up to 50-60 each day. The main "phactor" (but not the only one) that set the scene for these of problems: Cancelled RJ early on during the during the day. The passengers get rerouted on the next flight, but the bags are not moved with them. Either noone takes the bags over to the next flight - or - the next flight can't take all the bags. What follows then is a ripple effect, bags for people on the second flight get bumped for the bags from the first flight. Bags for the people on the third flight get left behing for bags from the second flight. And so on.

Add the problems that PHL has in getting bags from Mainline to Express (and vv) and you have your mini meltdown.

This station (as do others in the region) draws passenger who live considerable distance from the airport (2 to 3 hours drive) That means expensive delivery charges.

 

[TechBoy]

You may be right, but the airlines operating the CVG RJ hub and CLT are bleeding money. One is in Ch 11 and the other is close behind. I'm not as certain as you that either city can really "support" a hub.

The STL metro area is also larger than CVG and CLT (even larger than PIT) yet it couldn't support a successful hub. AA runs an RJ hub there now and WN has actually downsized ops there since the AA pulldown in 2003.

There are far too many hubs in this country, and things won't get better for legacy airlines until more of them close.

Of course, there are other large cities that either don't have hubs like BOS, SAN or SEA or have failed at supporting hubs as well, like CLE.

Recent metro area population data: http://www.demographia.com/db-usmet2003.pdf

[post="284823"][/post]​

I suspect that all the legacies are losing money on their domestic hubs right now, with the possible exception of EWR. So you are certainly right that if the legacies don't get their costs under control, their smaller hubs will continue to shrink and be disintermediated by the LCCs. But that problem is not unique to PIT.

By these standards, I'd say that the only "successful" hubs are ATL, ORD, EWR, DTW, DFW and perhaps SFO.

 

[TechBoy]

What difference does that make?

CVG and ATL are 375 miles apart, which isn't all that much more than PIT-PHL at 268 miles.

[post="284828"][/post]​

Two differences:

CVG and ATL have very different catchment areas for hubbing whereas PIT and PHL are drawing many of the same connections.

DL is a much larger carrier than US and so has many more pax to spread across closer hubs.

 

[LD3]

I suspect that all the legacies are losing money on their domestic hubs right now, with the possible exception of EWR. So you are certainly right that if the legacies don't get their costs under control, their smaller hubs will continue to shrink and be disintermediated by the LCCs. But that problem is not unique to PIT.

By these standards, I'd say that the only "successful" hubs are ATL, ORD, EWR, DTW, DFW and perhaps SFO.

[post="285465"][/post]​

If you ran a hub operation what would be make more financial sense a hub that moves less o&d traffic but only costs the airline 2.09 per pax, or a hub that moves twice as much o&d but cost the airline 8-9.00 per pax? It would be interesting to see what the numbers add up to.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL also used RJs in CVG much earlier than US so a high proportion of CVG flights have been operated by RJs for years. Recently, DL has actively gone after some of US' stronger NE markets with RJ service to CVG because NW doesn't have enough RJs and AA/UA don't have airport capacity at ORD to grow their network. Also, DL's larger network means service to more destinations outside US' network, esp. in the west and to Europe where DL has multiple alliance partners (and had them years before US joined an alliance. It is mindboggling, but CVG has service to five European cities. ORD is the only other midwest city with service to that many cities. In reality, CVG is probably overserved but DL needs a midwest hub and will probably not dismantle it until they merge with or are acquired by someone with a better midwest hub - and one that has room to grow. DTW is about the only midwest hub that fits that definition.

CLT is not a good candidate to be rolled. The local population cannot support more local service unless fares drop, which will happen if an LCC moves in. I wouldn't wish for an LCC just to roll a hub. Right now, CLT needs tight banks of hubs in order to attract connecting traffic. Part of the motivation to roll/de-hub ATL is that it is a much larger city, traffic is stimulated by LCC fares, and ATL air traffic is much more affected by weather than probably any city in the southeast. ATL also has service to all over the US and world; CLT is still largely a north-south hub.

 

[Harry Callahan]

These tight banks to get connecting psgrs are one of many reasons why we miss more baggage than you want to think of. It's just not enough time.