Pilot Concessions

[Kev3188]

One of my biggest issues with NWA has to do with not only how they deal with the unions but extends to how they deal with any organization or individual with whom the have contact. In short, NWA views any part of any sort of agreement which is of benefit to them as if it were written in stone and any part of any agreement which benefits the other party as being a variable only to be determined by NWA and if you don't like it then you'll have a fight on your hands. NWA interpretations always benefit them directly and anyone else only indirectly and incidentally (or accidentally).

For example, having attended our last contract negotiations and seeing the discussions on a particular piece of language, I felt sure that both parties understood and agreed on not only the language but the intent behind it. However, once the particular piece of language went into force then lo and behold the NWA interpretation was completely different and exactly the opposite of their previously stated intent. Not only that but their interpretation made them no money and wound up costing them more. It then took months and many thousands of dollars to win through arbitration that which even the arbitrator observed that NWA had very clearly agreed to in the beginning.

Again, this is not only how they deal with the employees but also how they deal with suppliers, vendors, and even customers. The lack of trust such a relationship engenders helps explain not only NWA's fractious labor history but also their customer service reputation, a reputation that ensures despite the best efforts of many of NWA's employees. If given the choice of a penny now or a dollar later they will always take the penny regardless of the consequences.

When you consider how we were treated during the last concessions, concessions which were of a limited duration, is it any surprise that we refuse to be rushed into permanent concessions now? If NWA is indeed in as dire a situation as they say, when you consider the lack of trust they have actively cultivated, is it any surprise that no one rushes to help them?

NWA/AMT--

I could not have said it better myself (especially the first & third paragraph). NWACSA if you're reading, this is where I was coming from when I started this thread.

 

[Blackdog]

Mistrust is the name of the game!
While NWA is negociating with ALPA, they know that the other unions on the property have no incentive to even come to the table. With Management refusing to even acknowledge the existence of the new FA union"PFAA" and refuses to give them their rightful dues check-off and existing seats on the board of directors, what makes NWA think that PFAA will consider coming to the table when the current contract expires in 13 months? Remember the old "Teamsters" contract expired in 1996, and it took NWA 4 full years to replace that contract with the current one. PFAA knows they're not going to get anything better than they have now in a new contract, so what's the incentive to bargain for a new one? I see them settling in 2009 or so. If NWA had treated PFAA with open arms instead of trying to bust them...who knows where we could be now?

 

[Red Tail Bear]

Have you noticed that the airlines that have "restructured" their wage scales are reporting significantly lower 1Q losses than NWA? To quote the Borg, "resistance is futile."



I've heard that NWA Management will take a 10% - 15% cut as soon as the Pilots agree to concessions. I asked why Management doesn't take the initiative and agree to pay cuts before anyone else, and was told that the Executives believe that if Management unilaterally takes a cut, no one else will follow.

I wonder why the Executives at NWA believe that if management takes a paycut no one else will follow. Could it be because they believe what goes around comes around. Do they feel like we owe them one. Maybe if they hadn't weasled out of the prior concessions deal (stock buyback) they wouldn't feel that way.They need to make good on their first negotiated concessions deal before they start talking about negotiating a second one. :down:

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I wonder why the Executives at NWA believe that if management takes a paycut no one else will follow. Could it be because they believe what goes around comes around. Do they feel like we owe them one. Maybe if they hadn't weasled out of the prior concessions deal (stock buyback) they wouldn't feel that way.They need to make good on their first negotiated concessions deal before they start talking about negotiating a second one. :down:

I'll "buy" that !!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

 

[emily]

Obviously, NWA needs to continue cutting costs to survive. I don't really consider NWA ALPA to be caving in as they did not offer a UAL/LCC type contract that is not amendable until 2009 but instead they are going with an "investment strategy" that would provide a mutual benefit and would be amendable in 2006. Nothing is for certain until all parties have signed on the dotted line but what is certain is that all NWA unions will have to participate before cost cutting measures concerning labor would be effective.

cheers

bigsky

It's caving only if there are not snapbacks at the end of the agreement.

 

[NWACSA]

he company is not looking for a temporary reduction , and I doubt it will agree to any, from anyone. It is seeking permanent work rule changes and wage reductions to better compete with Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, Spirit, JetBlue and the like. With Southwest itself expecting delivery of some 400 aircraft in the next few years, their influence will grow even stronger, whether or not their employees eventually demand a NW, UA or AA type-contract, is another issue but should they ever, NW employees will then have to negotiate a comparable agreement. Payscales at WN, at least, for customer service and ramp employees are comparable to those at NW (at least at top-out), the biggest differences being pension and benefits and the work rules (or lack thereof) of WN employees.

Don't expect any "snapback" 🙁

 

[coolflyingfool]

I the cuts/salary adjustments can be mutually beneficial, that would be great. I was wondering though, shouldn't management take their cuts in advance to say they are leading by example? I think that almost every airline is looking at pay right now. With oil sitting at $40 a barrel, damn, you got to make up the money to pay for the gas somewhere. Just my thoughts.....

 

[North by Northwest]

Ok folks, if I may throw my 2cents into the ring. NWA already has a competitive CASM when compared to the rest of the industry outside of the LCCs. Take the pilots out of the cost of Labor and you will see that our productivity level (work rules) is extreamly competitive. That is one of the many reasons NWA is not agressively pursuing the FA group for cuts. The pilot offer along with the exsisting cuts in labor and additional medical costs past on to the employees is a windfall for the company. Had fuel not shot through the roof last quarter you would have seen a clear profit at Red. You can bet there is a hardcore review of the hedging process going on in MSP. Don't look for all groups to jump on board the donation wagon. The pilot offer was very crafty in that it is an investment that could very well give them a hefty return.

 

[emily]

he company is not looking for a temporary reduction , and I doubt it will agree to any, from anyone. It is seeking permanent work rule changes and wage reductions to better compete with Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, Spirit, JetBlue and the like. With Southwest itself expecting delivery of some 400 aircraft in the next few years, their influence will grow even stronger, whether or not their employees eventually demand a NW, UA or AA type-contract, is another issue but should they ever, NW employees will then have to negotiate a comparable agreement. Payscales at WN, at least, for customer service and ramp employees are comparable to those at NW (at least at top-out), the biggest differences being pension and benefits and the work rules (or lack thereof) of WN employees.

Don't expect any "snapback" 🙁

Like I said, if they agree to anything without a snapback they are caving in. There is absolutely no reason to sign anything without snapback provisions. The company claims the banks will not refinance revolver debt with snabacks in place. IMHO that is not true. The pilots have shown they are reasonable by entertaining concessions. If at the end of the agreement times are still tough then they can simply extend the agreement. But to completely throw away the book rates would be the dumbest thing they could do.

 

[Bigsky]

Emily
As much as we would all love to return to the glory days that just might not be possible until the LCC pilots get their act together, unionize and start asking for decent compensation/work rules. It would be difficult for NW to compete after snapbacks with an LCC who pays their pilots half of a NW pilots salary.

The management at companies like B6 are smart, substitute a little kool-aid in for REAL compensation/work rules and everybody is happy.

Hats off to the pilots of WN who unionized, make a decent wage on par with DL and NW while keeping the company profitable. WN should be the standard for the LCCs as far as compensation/work rules are concerned. Are you listening B6 and F9?

cheers

bigsky

 

[C54Capt]

bigsky,
Tell me the difference in WN's non-ALPA union and F-9's non-ALPA union. Both of whom have higher compensation rates than many of the ALPA carriers.

 

[Busdrvr]

Does FRNT and SWA offer it's pilots post retirement healthcare? A fund? Keep in mind that these salary surveys usually ignore the costs of pension, benefits and post retirement hc. SWA guys even have to pay for their own airport parking. What needs to happen is to have an industry wide pilot cost per flight hour minimum standard. If you value w-2 more than A-fund, fine, you should have higher w-2 and no A-fund. As long as we foolishly compete against each other through our own wallets, industry salaries will continue to decrease. If any airline can't survive unless it pays less than everyone else, then it SHOULD go out of business

 

[KCFlyer]

SWA guys even have to pay for their own airport parking.

Did you know that in Dallas, office workers who work downtown and are not in the upper echelons of their companies also have to pay their own parking? I know...a pilots gotta park in the parking lot when he's out of town on business...How dare Southwest not cover their parking. But the lowly office worker has to pay parking every day they go to work too.

 

[Busdrvr]

"Did you know that in Dallas, office workers who work downtown and are not in the upper echelons of their companies also have to pay their own parking?"



Do you think because the company chooses to treat one group poorly, they should treat all groups poorly? The company SHOULD pay for the lowly employees parking, but also keep in mind that parking is usually fairly expensive at the airport. Kind of off subject, but what about multi-airport domiciles? The screw desk at UAL was know to send a SFO reservist at the speed of heat to SJC to pick up a trip last minute. Parking in short term there is EXTREMELY expensive. Who should pay? But back to the point, those little things add up, and when an entire package is considered, many LCC guys don't make anywhere near what you think.

 

[Bigsky]

Busdrver wrote

As long as we foolishly compete against each other through our own wallets, industry salaries will continue to decrease. If any airline can't survive unless it pays less than everyone else, then it SHOULD go out of business

Exactly. I will also agree with Busdrvr on the fact that a compensation survey comparing hourly rates for position/equipment is only the tip of the iceberg when comparing pilots contracts. Other items would be trip hour credit, vacation, scope clauses and NW's excellent commuting policy. Don't the pension.

C54Capt wrote

Tell me the difference in WN's non-ALPA union and F-9's non-ALPA union. Both of whom have higher compensation rates than many of the ALPA carriers.

Not saying that your company has to be ALPA to be successful. Look at UPS and American. I am just saying that it would be nice to see F9 and B6 at least look at a WN type of pilot contract and use that as a benchmark. Both F9 and B6 are good ailines and would compete well with contracts that offered more benefits/compensation to their pilots.

...

...How dare Southwest not cover their parking. But the lowly office worker has to pay parking every day they go to work too.

Earth to KCflyer, come in KCFlyer. So now were comparing the secretaries of Dallas to Airline pilots? If I park my car at the airport for seven days, it had better be covered by the company. Do the Dallas secretaries go to work for seven days in a row....the dreaded 168 hour shift?

cheers

bigsky